There has been a couple of stirrings on the internet about my use of the word Post-gay on this blog. Queerty (a gay blog with soft porn tendencies) highlighted it (click through at your own risk … seriously.) I responded on their blog (the below only includes the relevant part for this post.):
I did a workshop on it at the last Exodus conference but basically we don’t deny that “post-gay” is a secular term and describes a much larger cultural phenomenon. I always try to qualify that I am on a Christian post-gay journey. Our relational paradigm exists (and always has) outside of the alphabet soup of labels commonly attached to same sex attracted individuals who might identify with some aspect of gay culture.
So, we aren’t trying to define it beyond what post-gay already includes. People who are Christian who are not defined by sexual orientation (regardless of whether that one aspect of their lives change or not) fit into the post-gay reality.
We may come at it from a Christian perspective but we are just as “post-gay” as anyone who holds to an ideology not confined by the very limiting gay vs. straight paradigm.
Post-modernism is a good example. We live in a post-modern world but what that actually means from person to person, community to community is very different except for the basis of living in a world that is no longer modernist. Post-gay is where Europe and America both are headed and it will mean very different things to the people in the culture except for the basis … we all are moving past a world limited by the gay/straight dichotomy.
It’s my genuine hope this will generate more civil and honest dialog across the board.
Ex-gay is an identity label based in what we are not and I have never seen how that is supposed to be positive. The secular media likes it because it quickly pigeonholes a sound bite. I have reluctantly used it in the past, Exodus has reluctantly used it from time to time but I only know maybe 4 people who actually like using that term.
If it is truly “post-gay” it can’t be limited to pro-gay morality and ideology.
At Exodus, many of the people who come to us for help never identified as gay or straight to begin with … they were post-gay in the sense that their frame of reference never included being “gay” as a factor. They never came out of the closet because they were never in it to begin with. For those of us who used to identify as gay or with gay culture, we don’t live in between two worlds (gay vs. straight.) We live in the real world that is beyond those limited labels and not defined by one issue.
As I like to say from time to time, I came out of the closet to find out I was in the wrong house. I “came out” in a frame-work of liberal pro-gay ideology that did not bring me the happiness, freedom or hope that I longed for. However, I was told my only option was to embrace that pro-gay liberal view. Exodus has said for almost 35 years now that there is another “W”ay … and that can be a post-gay message in a Christian context.
But for those of us on a Christian post-gay journey, living beyond those labels is not anti-gay at all. My existence is not based on what those who identify as gay judge about me and my beliefs. My journey is not framed by anything other than what I want out of life as determined by my relationship with God. I didn’t begin or stay on this journey for anyone other reason than Christ and my own life goals. For others to say that my life is somehow about being anti-them … that is simply not true.
I have talked with a LOT of people about this over the past few years. Several people I have approached behind the scenes also have a high profile in the gay community (on some level) and LOVE the whole post-gay discussion because it disempowers the culture war (to a certain extent) with regard to personal relationship and dialog. But they agree with me, we are only seeing the beginnings of that concept taking root and those firmly committed to identity politics and the culture war will not want to go there. And for clarity, I don’t think that this “post-gay” perspective will stop any of the public policy or religious battles but it will hopefully increase civility and tolerance across the board.
My primary identity is as a Christian. Post-gay only describes one part of my journey with Christ.
So, that is a very short synopsis of what this all means and the implications.
MORE:
Peter Ould does an excellent job explaining this from a biblical perspective.
If you’d like, you can order the audio of the Post-Gay Paradigm Workshop
About Randy Thomas
I like this, Randy.
You do well to point this out: “At Exodus, many of the people who come to us for help never identified as gay or straight to begin with … they were post-gay in the sense that their frame of reference never included being “gay” as a factor. They never came out of the closet because they were never in it to begin with. For those of us who used to identify as gay or with gay culture, we don’t live in between two worlds (gay vs. straight.) We live in the real world that is beyond those limited labels and not defined by one issue.”
cool. I am very glad you do … and it makes sense to you
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I like this, Randy.
You do well to point this out: “At Exodus, many of the people who come to us for help never identified as gay or straight to begin with … they were post-gay in the sense that their frame of reference never included being “gay” as a factor. They never came out of the closet because they were never in it to begin with. For those of us who used to identify as gay or with gay culture, we don’t live in between two worlds (gay vs. straight.) We live in the real world that is beyond those limited labels and not defined by one issue.”
cool. I am very glad you do … and it makes sense to you
.
This is very interesting. On the one hand, I certainly know some people in actively homosexual relationships who don’t identify as “gay” (mostly professors or academics of one kind or another). And I can certainly understand the uselessnesss of labels to a certain extent. I use the term “gay” for myself (one could say I identify as such), but if I compare myself to some of my peers who are involved in Exodus ministries, who identify as “ex-gay” or “post-gay,” our lives really aren’t that different.
We’re both Evangelical Christians. We’re both college guys with jobs, families, friends, churches, and Bible studies. We struggle with the same temptations against porn, masturbation, and acting out sexually. We both are doing our best to learn more about Scripture and grow in Christ. The only difference is a few terms, which we have picked (or not picked) for different reasons. That doesn’t mean those terms are the be-all, end-all of who we are. Like I said, our lives look the same whether we use a certain term to describe them or not. I think where I start getting upset is when someone says that I’m less of a Christian for using the term “gay,” since I try not to do that to people who use terms like “ex-gay” or “post-gay.”
And, granted, these are social terms. I would expect that, in a scientific context, if someone asked a person if their attractions were heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual, they would pick the one that was accurate no matter what label they used in their day-to-day life. I may use “gay” and a peer may use “ex-gay,” but if we both like men exclusively than in any kind of scientific study we should say our orientations are homosexual (and that doesn’t mean that said orientation is immutable or all-ecompassing). Of course, that’s a hypothetical since I haven’t been in any studies recently.
I agree with you to a point, CollegeJay. Gay, ex-gay and post-gay may be social terms to a large extent. And not knowing you or the details of your day-to-day struggles, I can’t say that you are any different from another Christian who is mightily tempted with homosexual thoughts or deeds but chooses to identify as one moving away from that. Generally, the Christians I know who want to be called gay are fundamentally different in their theology from someone like me, who has gotten beyond that struggle and cannot affirm homosexual behavior in any way, shape or form. How we each view our relationship with Christ is also a telling point. You could call yourself gay just as a recovered/recovering alcoholic still may identity as an alcoholic for all I care. None of us is ever immune to falling back into old sinful behaviors if we allow the right thoughts or circumstances into our lives for long enough. So, if you are someone who accepts that the struggle with always be with you to some extent (over and above mankind’s general proclivity to sin), then I guess gay is as good a term as any. Many folks will see you as affirming homosexuality if you describe yourself that way, of course.
Many folks will definitely see me that way. It’s kind of an interesting observation. In my day-to-day life, I don’t think I ever have to use a term to identify myself at all. If I ever do, I may say, “I’m gay, but I’m a celibate Christian” if there is time to have a full conversation about my beliefs and why I choose to live the way I do. I don’t think I ever just leave it at “I’m gay” unless the person already knows about my beliefs, in which case they already know exactly what I mean by the term “gay.”
Mostly, the only time any of us seem to use these kinds of labels is online when describing ourselves. When in day-to-day life, labels like this — straight, gay, ex-gay, or post-gay — don’t really come up that much. So it’s an interesting discussion but probably not the most relevant one. Thanks for your comments, and also thanks for your comments at Warren Throckmorton’s blog. I’m over there quite a bit as well.
This is very interesting. On the one hand, I certainly know some people in actively homosexual relationships who don’t identify as “gay” (mostly professors or academics of one kind or another). And I can certainly understand the uselessnesss of labels to a certain extent. I use the term “gay” for myself (one could say I identify as such), but if I compare myself to some of my peers who are involved in Exodus ministries, who identify as “ex-gay” or “post-gay,” our lives really aren’t that different.
We’re both Evangelical Christians. We’re both college guys with jobs, families, friends, churches, and Bible studies. We struggle with the same temptations against porn, masturbation, and acting out sexually. We both are doing our best to learn more about Scripture and grow in Christ. The only difference is a few terms, which we have picked (or not picked) for different reasons. That doesn’t mean those terms are the be-all, end-all of who we are. Like I said, our lives look the same whether we use a certain term to describe them or not. I think where I start getting upset is when someone says that I’m less of a Christian for using the term “gay,” since I try not to do that to people who use terms like “ex-gay” or “post-gay.”
And, granted, these are social terms. I would expect that, in a scientific context, if someone asked a person if their attractions were heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual, they would pick the one that was accurate no matter what label they used in their day-to-day life. I may use “gay” and a peer may use “ex-gay,” but if we both like men exclusively than in any kind of scientific study we should say our orientations are homosexual (and that doesn’t mean that said orientation is immutable or all-ecompassing). Of course, that’s a hypothetical since I haven’t been in any studies recently.
I agree with you to a point, CollegeJay. Gay, ex-gay and post-gay may be social terms to a large extent. And not knowing you or the details of your day-to-day struggles, I can’t say that you are any different from another Christian who is mightily tempted with homosexual thoughts or deeds but chooses to identify as one moving away from that. Generally, the Christians I know who want to be called gay are fundamentally different in their theology from someone like me, who has gotten beyond that struggle and cannot affirm homosexual behavior in any way, shape or form. How we each view our relationship with Christ is also a telling point. You could call yourself gay just as a recovered/recovering alcoholic still may identity as an alcoholic for all I care. None of us is ever immune to falling back into old sinful behaviors if we allow the right thoughts or circumstances into our lives for long enough. So, if you are someone who accepts that the struggle with always be with you to some extent (over and above mankind’s general proclivity to sin), then I guess gay is as good a term as any. Many folks will see you as affirming homosexuality if you describe yourself that way, of course.
Many folks will definitely see me that way. It’s kind of an interesting observation. In my day-to-day life, I don’t think I ever have to use a term to identify myself at all. If I ever do, I may say, “I’m gay, but I’m a celibate Christian” if there is time to have a full conversation about my beliefs and why I choose to live the way I do. I don’t think I ever just leave it at “I’m gay” unless the person already knows about my beliefs, in which case they already know exactly what I mean by the term “gay.”
Mostly, the only time any of us seem to use these kinds of labels is online when describing ourselves. When in day-to-day life, labels like this — straight, gay, ex-gay, or post-gay — don’t really come up that much. So it’s an interesting discussion but probably not the most relevant one. Thanks for your comments, and also thanks for your comments at Warren Throckmorton’s blog. I’m over there quite a bit as well.
Jay, I can see that you give a lot of thought to what you say. I appreciate what you have shared. See you around the blogosphere (which is quite an interesting place these days).
Jay, I can see that you give a lot of thought to what you say. I appreciate what you have shared. See you around the blogosphere (which is quite an interesting place these days).