Yesterday I shared some of my heart on politics and people and how muddy things can get when we don’t represent Christ’s heart fully and operate with 100% of His grace and 100% of His truth. I wasn’t quite finished on the subject so here are some of my ongoing thoughts on the matter.
It’s inevitable that some may misread my intent and my heart so I want to be as clear as I can be. I am concerned about hate crimes, preserving our religious liberties and freedom of speech. I am pro-marriage and care deeply about all the ways I see this God-ordained institution crumbling. Take divorce for example. I hate divorce. I hate how it has and will affect the millions of children mortally wounded in its wake. But sadly, I know more Christians who are ending their marriages than I do non-Christians. No wonder it seems like we are the last ones on earth who should be fighting “for marriage”. We’ve contributed significantly to its present crippled state. We must own it, repent of it and recommit in word and deed.
Being pro-marriage means that I am also opposed to redefining it for any reason, even though I understand why the gay community is seeking such a change. Being whole is intrinsic to who God created us to be, but sometimes we try to meet that need in ways God never intended. Left to our own devices we allow our minds and hearts to drive us toward meeting our needs. We “feel” therefore we “are”. We “feel” therefore we “think”. Yet, we “are” so much more than we sometimes feel or think. As humans our feelers and thinkers are off, which is why we struggle and why we need a Savior.
As I look around I rarely find many, even in the Christian world, who “get it”. “It” being the larger purpose of who God created us to be, which is the only reason we should care when people are living in ways that they shouldn’t. As a father, I want my children to obey and do the “right thing,” but not just for the sake of doing “right thing.” I want them to reap the reward of being obedient. I want them to know the blessing that comes from being and living up to all that God created them to be. Of course I want them to obey, but I want them to obey because the end result is a more joyful and complete life in Christ.
Unfortunately, it seems the culture war hasn’t focused much on helping people understand that there is more for them in Christ than there is for them in their sin. The message many tell me they are hearing is “stop it” and “you’re wrong” and “I’m right”. It seems we’ve cared more about emphasizing the “right thing” for the sake of the “right thing” instead of how the doing the right things leads to a life of joy and wholeness in Christ.
A gay or lesbian identified person might disagree with me on the basis of their unhappiness, but the truth is that there is a lot of unhappiness, anger and bitterness in the gay community. There is a tangible desire for revenge against Christians. Revenge is wrong, but I understand fully where “they” are coming from. We have an angry and bitter gay rights movement today, in part because we, the Church, have helped to create some of it. The gay community has seen too many scandals about church leaders on the 6 o’clock news. In essence, we’ve stridently addressed the splinter in our brothers’ eye and failed to deal with the log jutting out of our own.
It isn’t just enough to be theologically and scripturally right in our position. If our attitude is wrong, then we can scrap the whole mission. Truth without grace is void. Conversely, it is not enough to simply offer more grace in place of the truth. To say nothing about truth is to make your witness null and void, as well.
There are many things I don’t know, but one thing I do – that Christ died for all of us or He died for none of us. His Word is true – all of it. And, He knew that we’d NEVER be able to fulfill the entirety of the Law so He sent His son Jesus to fulfill it for us – once and for always. He was perfect and He bore our eternal punishment so that in trusting Him, we would be spared. Those who understand this, understand the point of life and why sin of any kind is not something we should embrace. God is truly for us, not against us. When we, as the Church, get that, then we can help others who need the same transformational truth, to get it too.
About Alan Chambers
“Left to our own devices we allow our minds and hearts to drive us toward meeting our needs. We “feel” therefore we “are”. We “feel” therefore we “think”. Yet, we “are” so much more than we sometimes feel or think. As humans our feelers and thinkers are off, which is why we struggle and why we need a Savior.”
Alan, I do admire your (and Randy’s) gift to meaningfully turn a phrase. This is another of those arrows, zinging straight to the target. Bless you. I think I have found another quote or two to add to my book.
Another beautifully expressed and true statement, Alan. God has gifted you with both insights and writing ability and I praise Him for using you in important ways. If only more children were being raised to understand obedience the way yours are! Keep it up — I know you will!
There are many things I don’t know, but one thing I do – that Christ died for all of us or He died for none of us.
I think the Bible would disagree with you there. Then again, I’m a five-point Calvinist. Simply put, although Christ is indeed good, sometimes people do have to simply obey. Sometimes obeying doesn’t lead to a happy or whole life. Christ doesn’t call us to be happy, but to be holy. He didn’t die so we could be healthy, happy people. He died to save His chosen elect (and His chosen elect only) from Hell, so that in Heaven we could finally be with Him. Then we can be happy and whole, but those two things are not guaranteed for believers, gay or straight, this side of Heaven. They are not our goal, and they are not why we believe in Him. Christ Himself, and His own glory, is why we believe.
College Jay:
Alan is correct. Jesus did die for every person who was ever born or who will ever be born on this earth. As the apostle John says, “He died not for our sins only (the believers), but also for the sins of the whole world.” I John 2:2 Peter tells us in his letter that God is not willing that any person perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth. When Jesus wept over Jerusalem He said, “How often I would have gathered you like mother hen under my wings, but you would not.” See it? Jesus said, “I would” but they “would not.” To Jesus is to see the Father. And He said it in tears. I have much more to say, but I’m on my way to take my son to basketball practice. I’ll blog more later.
College Jay:
Just got back from basketball practice with my son. Where were we? Oh yea, Alan is correct. The scripture does not teach a “limited atonement” but rather that Jesus tasted death for ALL men. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would believe on Him should not perish but have eternal life. Calvinist believe that a person must be regenerated sovereignly by God before that person can even believe on Jesus. Which means God picks those He wants in heaven and regenerates them and picks those He wants in Hell and does not regenerate them. This was John Calvin’s doctrine and not the teaching of scripture. It is from the pit of Hell itself.
Anyone can be saved because the light of God shines into the darkness in the word of the good news. “Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your heart.” People have a choice to receive the light when they hear the good news or harden their heart against it and not receive it. People have a choice and God does not choose for them. People who choose to receive Jesus are counted righteous through His death and the gift of the Spirit (i.e. regeneration) is given to them. As Paul wrote in Chapter 1 of Ephesians: “After you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.” First faith, then regeneration. Anyone can be saved.
And just to be clear, the good news is the message that whosoever puts their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of all their sin receives the righteousness of God as a gift and the life of God within through the Spirit as a gift, and God will no longer remember the sins of that person again, past, present or future, nor will the Lord ever count any sin against that believer ever again, past, present or future. That believer is no longer under law and therefore sin will no longer be imputed. The scripture says that where there is no law, there is no transgression. That’s great news!
Jesus said He came to give us an abundant life and a life full of joy and peace, just like Alan said in his comment. We are now holy and blameless in Him, the scripture teaches. Holy means “other” or “set apart and different from man” and we are now “other” even as Jesus is “other” because we are no longer from the Adamic race but from above through the new birth. Jerusalem above is our mother, Paul tells us in the Galatian letter. John tells us, “As Jesus is so are we in Him.”
There are lots of problems with the theology of Calvinists. For instance, you will never hear a Calvinist teach that “we are not under law” or “we are free from the law” or “we are dead to the law” (all phrases Paul used in teaching the believers) because the Calvinist sees the law as a means of sanctification for the believer. Paul said the law is the very strength of sin, but you’ll never hear a Calvinist teach that.
I have known believers that got into Calvinism because they were attracted to the emphasis on logic and reason, but the road ended in emptiness in a place void of a personal God who speaks now through His Spirit and who loves all people. There is something higher than logic and reason. It is revelation. The scripture says, “Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love Him, but God has revealed these things to us by His Spirit.” I’m glad I know the Father as revealed in Jesus. A Father who wants all people to be saved and find life. A Father who weeps over Jerusalem because, even though He would gather them like a mother hen gathers her little chicks under her wing, they rejected Him. His tears were either real or He was acting. If they were real, then Calvinism is a lie. If Jesus was faking those tears, well, that would be a lie, and it is impossible for God to lie. Let God be true and every man a liar, the scripture says.
College Jay I pray that you will not allow men to tell you what the scripture says, but rather that you will call on the Lord to open your understanding of the scriptures so that you might see Him as He really is. “Call upon Me, says the Lord, and I will answer you and show you great and mighty things that you know not.” (Jeremiah 33:3)
I’m not going to re-fight the Reformation on a blog. I think those are pretty selective texts though, and I think the Bible presents many more verses that validate the doctrine of election. I would read the writings and listen to the sermons of John Piper. Or look up some of the excellent sermons from such great pastors of years past as Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, or J.C. Ryle. Heck, just go visit a Presbyterian Church, or a Reformed Church of American, or even most Baptist churches. Calvinism is a very valid and important religious tradition within Christianity. I’d say it makes up over half of the Christian denominations in America. I’m not going to go into why it’s all true. I will say, though, that I think it presents a much more accurate picture of God’s sovereignty. Christ died to save those who would actually believe in Him. If He died for everyone, then no one would go to Hell, because His blood totally covers those He died for.
College Jay:
Dude, when shown scripture after scripture that clearly refutes John Calvin’s distorted view of the gospel of Christ, the proper response is not to say, “Well I think there are more scriptures that say what John Calvin says.” All scripture must be interpreted in light of all scripture. It’s not a contest to see how many scriptures say one thing and how many say another. As they say on SportsCenter, “C’ mon Man! All the scriptures agree and say the same thing if we will honestly and prayerfully look at all of them and not just the ones that seem to support our position.
Typical of a Calvinist, you could not refute the clear meaning of the scriptures I gave you, but rather you turned to the writings of men and the books of men and the sermons of men to make your case. Reformed theology (Calvinism) is not as widespread as they would like you to believe. It’s actually losing its followers instead of growing in numbers. Let’s not look to men, but to the scriptures. And by the way, it’s not all about holiness, it’s about the love of God. Paul wrote to Timothy saying that he prayed he would be filled with the love of God and that would establish him in holiness or “otherness.” Jesus died and rose again because He loves us. He prepared a place for us in Himself after three days that we might be where He is. We are now with Him, seated in heavenly places and He is now with us, within. Christ in us, our hope of glory. Christ within, now, in the Spirit, because He desires to be with us. It’s all about His great love for us and the fellowship we now enjoy in Him. We are the living stones of the true temple that He raised in three days, i.e. Himself. We have become the dwelling place of God now in the Spirit. Everything I just wrote is scripture. It’s awesome! I don’t try to live for God, God lives His own life through me. “I was crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ, and the life I now live in this body I live by faith in Jesus who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Gal. 2:20)
You are missing out on a lot, Collge Jay. I pray you will look to the Spirit of God to teach you and not look primarily to men. “The anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” (I John 2:27)
Just for clarification, my reply was to your first comment. It was simply moderated at the same time as your second comment. I did not reply to your second comment, because like I said, I’m not going to get into a theological debate like this on a blog. Obviously, there are many good Christians who have come to a different position than you about Reformed theology. To say that Calvinists aren’t open to the Spirit of God, but to men, is ridiculous. In my mind, Calvinism fits with Scripture better than any other theological perspective. But to get into the reasons why I think that, I would have to write a 500-page thesis on systematic theology. I don’t have time to do that, but I gave you the names of authors who have.
And you know, John Calvin isn’t even the father of Calvinism. Martin Luther, the very man who started the Protestant Reformation, also believed in the doctrine of election. So did the Puritans, and like I said, so do many other Christian denominations (including Anglicans, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc.) Some of the most well-known Christian leaders today (Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Al Mohler) are Calvinists. I point to them not to say that I follow men over God, but that they have devoted their lives to defending the Scriptures and will be able to make arguments ten times better and more convincing than I ever could.
Jay, point out one place in scripture that proves your point and disproves mine. And, I didn’t say Christ was most interested in our happiness. I know holiness is the point. But, regardless of our circumstances in life we can have peace and joy amidst them. He definitely doesn’t want us to walk around like we’ve been sucking lemons, dude. That isn’t compelling.
By the way, do you know who the elect are (if there is such a group)? If not, then it doesn’t really matter whether you agree with “Christ died for all of us or He died for none of us.” Truth is He died and our job is to lead people to Him. So, quit being so selective and exclusive like you know who is and isn’t going to Heaven and just reach people with the Gospel.
I’m not saying we should walk around like we’ve been sucking lemons. Joy and peace are great to have. We have to struggle and fight for them sometimes, but I’m not saying they are bad things. They are, however, things that non-Christians can experience as well. It’s the holiness — the sanctification from our Lord Jesus Christ — that sets us Christians apart. Therefore, I think holiness should be highlighted first and foremost. I said what I said because I didn’t feel you were highlighting it enough, so I offered my perspective. That’s what blog comments are for.
If we have to compel non-believers with promises of health, happiness, or prosperity, then we are doing a disservice to the Gospel. Christ and His holiness should be enough. Like I said, if someone says they are already at peace and have joy, but don’t have Christ, how do we convince them of their need for Him? We can’t use the happiness or joy argument. We have to tell them that no matter how great they feel about their life, God’s standard is the only one that matters, and that they are sinners who will be cut apart from Him after they die, and that they should seek refuge in His holiness or face that horrible fate.
I didn’t say I know who is and who isn’t going to Heaven. I just know it won’t be everyone. And I know it won’t be everyone because I think that the Bible makes it clear that God elected who will be saved from the very foundation of time. I’m sure someone who is active in ministry such as yourself has studied Calvinist theology thoroughly, and disagree with it, so I won’t argue with you. Just know that that’s the perspective I take, along with many Christians, including many within Exodus. Obviously, Calvinists do reach out to everyone with the Gospel. We don’t know who the elect are.
But when I see a theological statement around that I 100% disagree with, I do feel led to say something. After all, if we couldn’t disagree, what would blogging be for?
“Christ died to save those who would actually believe in Him. If He died for everyone, then no one would go to Hell, because His blood totally covers those He died for.”
Uh, don’t want to get into a theological debate here (I’m not smart enough), but I can see where Jay is coming from. Reformed theology is no small thing, and I have been studying it more and more. I pray for wisdom (as James 1:5 says) and spiritual insight on these matters.
Whatever the truth is regarding “election” (which is discussed in the Bible), we are all disciples of Christ, with compassion enough for those still lost in this world to reach out to them with the Gospel. Works for me. God can elect if He chooses. He can harden hearts and blind eyes, if He chooses. Our response to His (John 3:16) love is to live out the Great Commission. One day, we’ll know fully.
How about this? Everyone is forgiven by Christ’s death, but not everyone is saved by his life (Romans 5:10) What if the whole world from Adam to the end of time was totally forgiven at the cross, but only some receive Him and his life? Forgiveness is not salvation. Forgiveness is the cancelling of the debt. Salvation happens when we receive his life. Some choose to receive it, and some choose to reject it. We’re all forgiven by his death, but not all are willing to be saved by his life. How about that?
I’ve heard that argument, but to me that’s saying that Christ’s death was insufficient. It implies that He only did some of the salvation work for folks, instead of all of it. And to me, that’s just not a good concept. I also don’t know where you found that distinction between forgiveness and salvation. Christ died so He would be a substitute. The wrath meant for believers was poured out upon Him, and so now all of the saved are seen by God to be as blameless as Him. The reason some are damned is not because they didn’t choose life. It’s because the wages of sin is death, and Christ cancels the debt. If the debt is cancelled, the person will be united with God.
Jay, I think I understand what you’re saying, and I think you understand what I’m saying, and that for the time being, I still disagree with you, but we are Brothers in Him nonetheless. You may well be correct and complete in it , from which I would infer that I my understanding is not complete, which is entirely possible. So I do indeed appreciate any prayers that my understanding will grow into completion, and I am totally serious in what I have just said, I am not jesting. (Even though we are all of us still seeing through a glass darkly, but THEN when He appears, face to face). I therefore hope you’ll bear with me as I attempt to explain my current understanding further.
Currently, and since my spriritual birth in 1984, I am at peace with God confident that God has forgiven me (33 A.D.) and I have received him (1984 A.D.) and that any person may die before they’re born (spiritual miscarriages, yes?), but once they’re born spiritually, the life they’ve received is eternal and cannot be lost, because it’s not their life, it’s His, and they have received the adoption. (Gal 4:4-5). I think you understand that what I’m suggesting is that the debt was cancelled by the action of God in 33 A.D. without the person being united with God, because the debt was cancelled at the cross, but that each person has a choice whether or not to receive Him and His Life and to become one with him both in his suffering and in his resurrection. That fact that God knows in advance what the person’s choice is going to be does not for me negate the fact that it is still the person doing the choosing to receive or not receive God’s choice of them. I separate the work He did at the cross (which I currently believe is totally sufficient for anyone and everyone) from the recipient’s reception of His life (which some do and some don’t). I understand the Word to say that we are forgiven by his death, but saved by his life. I understand reception to be an act of the individual’s will, not the act of God at the Cross. (Romans 5:10). And that there are many who are forgiven but they don’t believe it, and don’t want to, they want to try to earn their own way by their own righteousness (Romans 10:3), therefore they remain (continue) in death (John 3:18) in Adam because they have not (yet?) been born into His Life and been changed from being dead in Adam to being alive in Christ. I currently understand that his forgiveness of us does not equal or necessitate our reception of him and His Life.
Thank you for being willing to listen to me. I hope that you believe and trust that I am willing to listen to you. You have “gone out on a limb” in faith in your blog, and I believe God both honors and rejoices in that faith.
Thanks. I respect your views too. And of course we all see through a glass darkly when it comes to spiritual issues — both those who believe in predestination and those who believe in free will. I was merely speaking about my theology and religious tradition, and thank you for speaking about yours. May we all find the answers we’re looking for from Him and His word.
Your assessment works, Pianoman. We can leave the Epistimology to God.