Comments on: Of Politics & People: Part Two by Alan Chambers

By: The Manhattan Declaration on Marriage : Exodus International Blog

The Manhattan Declaration on Marriage : Exodus International Blog — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:38:53 +0000

[...] that light, I thought it was is interesting that he felt led to write about public policy here and here right before this news came down. [...]

By: College Jay

College Jay — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:15:40 +0000

Thanks. I respect your views too. And of course we all see through a glass darkly when it comes to spiritual issues — both those who believe in predestination and those who believe in free will. I was merely speaking about my theology and religious tradition, and thank you for speaking about yours. May we all find the answers we’re looking for from Him and His word.

By: Pianomankugie

Pianomankugie — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:02:43 +0000

Jay, I think I understand what you're saying, and I think you understand what I'm saying, and that for the time being, I still disagree with you, but we are Brothers in Him nonetheless. You may well be correct and complete in it , from which I would infer that I my understanding is not complete, which is entirely possible. So I do indeed appreciate any prayers that my understanding will grow into completion, and I am totally serious in what I have just said, I am not jesting. (Even though we are all of us still seeing through a glass darkly, but THEN when He appears, face to face). I therefore hope you'll bear with me as I attempt to explain my current understanding further. Currently, and since my spriritual birth in 1984, I am at peace with God confident that God has forgiven me (33 A.D.) and I have received him (1984 A.D.) and that any person may die before they're born (spiritual miscarriages, yes?), but once they're born spiritually, the life they've received is eternal and cannot be lost, because it's not their life, it's His, and they have received the adoption. (Gal 4:4-5). I think you understand that what I'm suggesting is that the debt was cancelled by the action of God in 33 A.D. without the person being united with God, because the debt was cancelled at the cross, but that each person has a choice whether or not to receive Him and His Life and to become one with him both in his suffering and in his resurrection. That fact that God knows in advance what the person's choice is going to be does not for me negate the fact that it is still the person doing the choosing to receive or not receive God's choice of them. I separate the work He did at the cross (which I currently believe is totally sufficient for anyone and everyone) from the recipient's reception of His life (which some do and some don't). I understand the Word to say that we are forgiven by his death, but saved by his life. I understand reception to be an act of the individual's will, not the act of God at the Cross. (Romans 5:10). And that there are many who are forgiven but they don't believe it, and don't want to, they want to try to earn their own way by their own righteousness (Romans 10:3), therefore they remain (continue) in death (John 3:18) in Adam because they have not (yet?) been born into His Life and been changed from being dead in Adam to being alive in Christ. I currently understand that his forgiveness of us does not equal or necessitate our reception of him and His Life. Thank you for being willing to listen to me. I hope that you believe and trust that I am willing to listen to you. You have "gone out on a limb" in faith in your blog, and I believe God both honors and rejoices in that faith.

By: Debbie Thurman

Debbie Thurman — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 14:27:39 +0000

Your assessment works, Pianoman. We can leave the Epistimology to God.

By: College Jay

College Jay — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:07:34 +0000

I’ve heard that argument, but to me that’s saying that Christ’s death was insufficient. It implies that He only did some of the salvation work for folks, instead of all of it. And to me, that’s just not a good concept. I also don’t know where you found that distinction between forgiveness and salvation. Christ died so He would be a substitute. The wrath meant for believers was poured out upon Him, and so now all of the saved are seen by God to be as blameless as Him. The reason some are damned is not because they didn’t choose life. It’s because the wages of sin is death, and Christ cancels the debt. If the debt is cancelled, the person will be united with God.

By: Pianomankugie

Pianomankugie — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:27:56 +0000

How about this? Everyone is forgiven by Christ’s death, but not everyone is saved by his life (Romans 5:10) What if the whole world from Adam to the end of time was totally forgiven at the cross, but only some receive Him and his life? Forgiveness is not salvation. Forgiveness is the cancelling of the debt. Salvation happens when we receive his life. Some choose to receive it, and some choose to reject it. We’re all forgiven by his death, but not all are willing to be saved by his life. How about that?

By: College Jay

College Jay — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:00:58 +0000

Just for clarification, my reply was to your first comment. It was simply moderated at the same time as your second comment. I did not reply to your second comment, because like I said, I’m not going to get into a theological debate like this on a blog. Obviously, there are many good Christians who have come to a different position than you about Reformed theology. To say that Calvinists aren’t open to the Spirit of God, but to men, is ridiculous. In my mind, Calvinism fits with Scripture better than any other theological perspective. But to get into the reasons why I think that, I would have to write a 500-page thesis on systematic theology. I don’t have time to do that, but I gave you the names of authors who have.

And you know, John Calvin isn’t even the father of Calvinism. Martin Luther, the very man who started the Protestant Reformation, also believed in the doctrine of election. So did the Puritans, and like I said, so do many other Christian denominations (including Anglicans, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc.) Some of the most well-known Christian leaders today (Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Al Mohler) are Calvinists. I point to them not to say that I follow men over God, but that they have devoted their lives to defending the Scriptures and will be able to make arguments ten times better and more convincing than I ever could.

By: James Barron

James Barron — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:18:48 +0000

College Jay:
Dude, when shown scripture after scripture that clearly refutes John Calvin’s distorted view of the gospel of Christ, the proper response is not to say, “Well I think there are more scriptures that say what John Calvin says.” All scripture must be interpreted in light of all scripture. It’s not a contest to see how many scriptures say one thing and how many say another. As they say on SportsCenter, “C’ mon Man! All the scriptures agree and say the same thing if we will honestly and prayerfully look at all of them and not just the ones that seem to support our position.

Typical of a Calvinist, you could not refute the clear meaning of the scriptures I gave you, but rather you turned to the writings of men and the books of men and the sermons of men to make your case. Reformed theology (Calvinism) is not as widespread as they would like you to believe. It’s actually losing its followers instead of growing in numbers. Let’s not look to men, but to the scriptures. And by the way, it’s not all about holiness, it’s about the love of God. Paul wrote to Timothy saying that he prayed he would be filled with the love of God and that would establish him in holiness or “otherness.” Jesus died and rose again because He loves us. He prepared a place for us in Himself after three days that we might be where He is. We are now with Him, seated in heavenly places and He is now with us, within. Christ in us, our hope of glory. Christ within, now, in the Spirit, because He desires to be with us. It’s all about His great love for us and the fellowship we now enjoy in Him. We are the living stones of the true temple that He raised in three days, i.e. Himself. We have become the dwelling place of God now in the Spirit. Everything I just wrote is scripture. It’s awesome! I don’t try to live for God, God lives His own life through me. “I was crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ, and the life I now live in this body I live by faith in Jesus who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Gal. 2:20)

You are missing out on a lot, Collge Jay. I pray you will look to the Spirit of God to teach you and not look primarily to men. “The anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” (I John 2:27)

By: Debbie Thurman

Debbie Thurman — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:12:37 +0000

“Christ died to save those who would actually believe in Him. If He died for everyone, then no one would go to Hell, because His blood totally covers those He died for.”

Uh, don’t want to get into a theological debate here (I’m not smart enough), but I can see where Jay is coming from. Reformed theology is no small thing, and I have been studying it more and more. I pray for wisdom (as James 1:5 says) and spiritual insight on these matters.

Whatever the truth is regarding “election” (which is discussed in the Bible), we are all disciples of Christ, with compassion enough for those still lost in this world to reach out to them with the Gospel. Works for me. God can elect if He chooses. He can harden hearts and blind eyes, if He chooses. Our response to His (John 3:16) love is to live out the Great Commission. One day, we’ll know fully.

By: College Jay

College Jay — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 02:53:04 +0000

I’m not saying we should walk around like we’ve been sucking lemons. Joy and peace are great to have. We have to struggle and fight for them sometimes, but I’m not saying they are bad things. They are, however, things that non-Christians can experience as well. It’s the holiness — the sanctification from our Lord Jesus Christ — that sets us Christians apart. Therefore, I think holiness should be highlighted first and foremost. I said what I said because I didn’t feel you were highlighting it enough, so I offered my perspective. That’s what blog comments are for.
If we have to compel non-believers with promises of health, happiness, or prosperity, then we are doing a disservice to the Gospel. Christ and His holiness should be enough. Like I said, if someone says they are already at peace and have joy, but don’t have Christ, how do we convince them of their need for Him? We can’t use the happiness or joy argument. We have to tell them that no matter how great they feel about their life, God’s standard is the only one that matters, and that they are sinners who will be cut apart from Him after they die, and that they should seek refuge in His holiness or face that horrible fate.
I didn’t say I know who is and who isn’t going to Heaven. I just know it won’t be everyone. And I know it won’t be everyone because I think that the Bible makes it clear that God elected who will be saved from the very foundation of time. I’m sure someone who is active in ministry such as yourself has studied Calvinist theology thoroughly, and disagree with it, so I won’t argue with you. Just know that that’s the perspective I take, along with many Christians, including many within Exodus. Obviously, Calvinists do reach out to everyone with the Gospel. We don’t know who the elect are.
But when I see a theological statement around that I 100% disagree with, I do feel led to say something. After all, if we couldn’t disagree, what would blogging be for?