Comments on: Healthy Vs. False Masculinity & Gender Complementarity http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/02/05/healthy-vs-false-masculine-gender-complementarity/ Welcome! Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:08:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Catherine H http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/02/05/healthy-vs-false-masculine-gender-complementarity/comment-page-1/#comment-7882 Catherine H Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:23:21 +0000 http://blog.exodusinternational.org/?p=1141#comment-7882 Hi SL, I hope you are well and doing OK today. and thank you for sharing your experience! I grew up hating females and being seen as female for similar reasons: To me, females under 40 were easy, tarty, thick bitches, there to be used and abused. I understand where you are coming from. We hear preachers trying to bring more men into church by saying Jesus was this rough carpenter, but they neglect the full man He is, that He raised the profile of women, educating women and being close friends with women in a time when that was a total no-no. Jesus is a feminist! If we look to Jesus as the example of masculinity, we see a man who welcomed children to Him while He was teaching, and put His hands on their heads. Jesus drew attention to a widow, He touched diseased people/outcasts, His followers were not educated people. So Jesus is not just this big, rough carpenter who drove people out of the Temple with a whip, He is a gentle man who understood people, and spent time talking quietly in a gentle way with people individually. Just like the role model for a woman is shown throughout the Bible, as women not making themselves up (how many churches teach women to make themselves up, and basically act as sex objects for their husband?), and Proverbs 29 says a woman is to be physically strong (how many churches would see this as 'masculine' or 'butch' or 'gay'?), mentally strong (whereas a lot of churches teach that women are to be subordinate, and prefer to keep women as weeping emotional wrecks), be able to make sound business decisions for her own business (whereas a lot of churches decry the feminist movement because it has wrecked the family - instead of saying that men need to love their wife by doing their share in the home, and refusing to acknowledge that the feminist movement started from Christianity by both Christian men and women), and the woman is to be respected by everyone (how many women are disrespected in churches if they voice contrary opinions or are not 'feminine'?) What churches teach, what society teaches, and what is in the Bible are often very different things. What society teaches in the UK and the US are mainly down to the culture that has developed. If we went to the Amazon, other parts of South America, different tribes in Africa, countries in Asia, we see men and women behaving in different ways to how men and women behave in the UK and US. And these might not be contrary to the Bible. Being from the UK and not conforming to what society wants women to be - and at the moment a lot of churches support this - and who travels, I think our societies are very arrogant, thinking we have it right, that what our society says about gender is true and Biblical, and everyone else is wrong. I mean, in Tunisia, 60% Science university students are female. To me, that is progression, that is women living out their lives with the gifts God gave them instead of being the thick, oppressed women we have, who concentrate on the easier subjects, like the Arts - I'm an Arts graduate, by the way. In the UK and US, we'd be lucky to get 20% female science university students. We think we know it all in the UK and US about just about everything, I like to think I know it all, and we don't. I've been longwinded, but yes, I think our society damages us beyond what we recognise, they expectations put on us, just because of what body parts we happen to have. Better go. God bless you, C -x- Hi SL, I hope you are well and doing OK today.

and thank you for sharing your experience! I grew up hating females and being seen as female for similar reasons: To me, females under 40 were easy, tarty, thick bitches, there to be used and abused. I understand where you are coming from.

We hear preachers trying to bring more men into church by saying Jesus was this rough carpenter, but they neglect the full man He is, that He raised the profile of women, educating women and being close friends with women in a time when that was a total no-no. Jesus is a feminist! If we look to Jesus as the example of masculinity, we see a man who welcomed children to Him while He was teaching, and put His hands on their heads. Jesus drew attention to a widow, He touched diseased people/outcasts, His followers were not educated people. So Jesus is not just this big, rough carpenter who drove people out of the Temple with a whip, He is a gentle man who understood people, and spent time talking quietly in a gentle way with people individually.

Just like the role model for a woman is shown throughout the Bible, as women not making themselves up (how many churches teach women to make themselves up, and basically act as sex objects for their husband?), and Proverbs 29 says a woman is to be physically strong (how many churches would see this as ‘masculine’ or ‘butch’ or ‘gay’?), mentally strong (whereas a lot of churches teach that women are to be subordinate, and prefer to keep women as weeping emotional wrecks), be able to make sound business decisions for her own business (whereas a lot of churches decry the feminist movement because it has wrecked the family – instead of saying that men need to love their wife by doing their share in the home, and refusing to acknowledge that the feminist movement started from Christianity by both Christian men and women), and the woman is to be respected by everyone (how many women are disrespected in churches if they voice contrary opinions or are not ‘feminine’?)

What churches teach, what society teaches, and what is in the Bible are often very different things. What society teaches in the UK and the US are mainly down to the culture that has developed. If we went to the Amazon, other parts of South America, different tribes in Africa, countries in Asia, we see men and women behaving in different ways to how men and women behave in the UK and US. And these might not be contrary to the Bible.

Being from the UK and not conforming to what society wants women to be – and at the moment a lot of churches support this – and who travels, I think our societies are very arrogant, thinking we have it right, that what our society says about gender is true and Biblical, and everyone else is wrong. I mean, in Tunisia, 60% Science university students are female. To me, that is progression, that is women living out their lives with the gifts God gave them instead of being the thick, oppressed women we have, who concentrate on the easier subjects, like the Arts – I’m an Arts graduate, by the way. In the UK and US, we’d be lucky to get 20% female science university students. We think we know it all in the UK and US about just about everything, I like to think I know it all, and we don’t.

I’ve been longwinded, but yes, I think our society damages us beyond what we recognise, they expectations put on us, just because of what body parts we happen to have.

Better go. God bless you,

C -x-

]]> By: SL http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/02/05/healthy-vs-false-masculine-gender-complementarity/comment-page-1/#comment-7721 SL Fri, 05 Feb 2010 22:13:13 +0000 http://blog.exodusinternational.org/?p=1141#comment-7721 For a time I was quite enthusiastic about the idea of clear divide between masculinity and femininity, but then I found myself moving towards the opposite direction. You see, I was a sensitive boy, cried a lot, sensitive to both physical and emotional pains, and adding to my experience a violent father whose number 1 "disciplinary" method was beating me up: slapping my face, kicking me, and verbally humiliating and shaming me. Masculinity didn't mean a lot of positive things to me, rather, it equated with brutality, violence, hatred, never compromising (even when it's necessary), killing (see how many boys love war themed stories, games, etc; killing is glorified in the counterfeit masculinity), rudeness. My sensitivity was rejected, I did not feel I was masculine. But now, let's take a paradigm shift: what if, there had never been any vaguest idea that boys and girls should be fundamentally different, that they should have completely different personalities, and completely different interests? Because when you make a statement that boys are like such and such, you are excluding some other boys who just happen to be different, the end result? They feel alienated. Such was like my story, if boys are not supposed to cry, yet I was still sensitive, and I really did want to cry, the statement that boys should not cry made me feel excluded from the world of boys. And what if these different boys are forced to conform, to suppress their natural feelings of sadness or their God-given talents in things like poetry, music, arts? Do you think it's God's will for them to be forcefully changed into someone that God never intended them to become? However, if from an early age I was told, it's OK for a boy to be sensitive, it's OK for boys to cry, and it's OK for boys to have feelings, and that real men are not supposed to be violent and brutal and mean and selfish and etc. I would have been more confident to claim my masculine identity, instead of losing it amidst heaps of unreasonable demands and expectations. I find it sickening when someone tries to define masculinity as one single concept, and effectively excluding other men from being able to claim that they are masculine. The bottom line: if boys, whether sensitive or less sensitive, extrovert or introvert, sporty or artistic, are accepted as masculine boys, more boys will grow up feeling reasonably good about their masculinity, male bonding between boys would be more easily accessible, and fewer boys would grow up having their need for healthy male identification left deficit and seek sexual relationships with other men as they grow into adulthood. Even as adults, they would realise there are different types of men, some may be more sporty and they may be more intellectual themselves, but they are equally men nonetheless. For a time I was quite enthusiastic about the idea of clear divide between masculinity and femininity, but then I found myself moving towards the opposite direction.
You see, I was a sensitive boy, cried a lot, sensitive to both physical and emotional pains, and adding to my experience a violent father whose number 1 “disciplinary” method was beating me up: slapping my face, kicking me, and verbally humiliating and shaming me.
Masculinity didn’t mean a lot of positive things to me, rather, it equated with brutality, violence, hatred, never compromising (even when it’s necessary), killing (see how many boys love war themed stories, games, etc; killing is glorified in the counterfeit masculinity), rudeness.
My sensitivity was rejected, I did not feel I was masculine.
But now, let’s take a paradigm shift: what if, there had never been any vaguest idea that boys and girls should be fundamentally different, that they should have completely different personalities, and completely different interests? Because when you make a statement that boys are like such and such, you are excluding some other boys who just happen to be different, the end result? They feel alienated. Such was like my story, if boys are not supposed to cry, yet I was still sensitive, and I really did want to cry, the statement that boys should not cry made me feel excluded from the world of boys. And what if these different boys are forced to conform, to suppress their natural feelings of sadness or their God-given talents in things like poetry, music, arts? Do you think it’s God’s will for them to be forcefully changed into someone that God never intended them to become?
However, if from an early age I was told, it’s OK for a boy to be sensitive, it’s OK for boys to cry, and it’s OK for boys to have feelings, and that real men are not supposed to be violent and brutal and mean and selfish and etc. I would have been more confident to claim my masculine identity, instead of losing it amidst heaps of unreasonable demands and expectations.
I find it sickening when someone tries to define masculinity as one single concept, and effectively excluding other men from being able to claim that they are masculine.
The bottom line: if boys, whether sensitive or less sensitive, extrovert or introvert, sporty or artistic, are accepted as masculine boys, more boys will grow up feeling reasonably good about their masculinity, male bonding between boys would be more easily accessible, and fewer boys would grow up having their need for healthy male identification left deficit and seek sexual relationships with other men as they grow into adulthood. Even as adults, they would realise there are different types of men, some may be more sporty and they may be more intellectual themselves, but they are equally men nonetheless.

]]> By: LJ http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/02/05/healthy-vs-false-masculine-gender-complementarity/comment-page-1/#comment-7719 LJ Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:20:40 +0000 http://blog.exodusinternational.org/?p=1141#comment-7719 Hey, even Adam screwed up. I think it's hard to find out what biblical, much less healthy masculinity looks like. It's been buried in the bad behaviors and such of our fathers and their fathers, etc. Though I've heard and even known some older guys who took care of the youngsters they came across. I wish I had more time with them. I wonder this alot, even earlier today. Hey, even Adam screwed up.

I think it’s hard to find out what biblical, much less healthy masculinity looks like. It’s been buried in the bad behaviors and such of our fathers and their fathers, etc. Though I’ve heard and even known some older guys who took care of the youngsters they came across. I wish I had more time with them.

I wonder this alot, even earlier today.

]]> By: Catherine H http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/02/05/healthy-vs-false-masculine-gender-complementarity/comment-page-1/#comment-7714 Catherine H Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:31:11 +0000 http://blog.exodusinternational.org/?p=1141#comment-7714 It's the same over here in the UK. Not many men around in churches. For every single Christian man, there are three single Christian women. So, marriage for 2/3 women in church is not looking likely. I think there is a wider problem with the way the West represents Christianity, especially amongst the newer and more lively churches and denominations. The songs and prayers are very emotional, touchy-feely. There's sentimental music played on the keyboard as someone at the front is outpouring more emotion as a prayer. People are either jumping up and down or crying. Because of my mental disorder, I don't have access to much emotion. I have found myself unable to worship in churches, or pray, and I thought there was something wrong with ME - well, there is, but I thought it was this giant problem that I really needed help with. When I returned to the traditional Biblical Methodist church last year, all of a sudden, I found myself able to worship, pray and at last, connect with God, in church. Why? Because worship in our church is not based on emotions or sentimentality, which can change like the wind. It is based on what is written in the Bible. It is based on standing strong in faith. It is like this in Taize worship, too, because Taize chants are mostly lifted directly from the Bible. I think modern worship is great, but we need to get away from the sentimentality and emotionalism that has crept into church life, and stand on Truth. I also think a diversity in church activities can bring a more diverse population into the church. Eg, for me, a pamper evening makes me feel sick, and other gay women say the same. I'm sure men feel the same! But a hike, climbing, abseiling, canoeing etc is attractive to both women and men. Getting away from gender stereotypes (yes, I bang on about this, but it's so big in churches, and we wonder why some people stay away from church) and away from the middle class activities that have taken over, like a ladies' pamper night and a men's curry night, and just doing what normal people do might make more people feel normal in churches. Also, doing more actively for charities might help. That is lacking big time in a lot of churches, whereas Oxfam and other charities are blooming as people, especially men, take up bike riding challenges, because they care and want to do something to help people worse off than themselves, and with Oxfam, they can do something physical and sporty and raise money. It’s the same over here in the UK. Not many men around in churches. For every single Christian man, there are three single Christian women. So, marriage for 2/3 women in church is not looking likely.
I think there is a wider problem with the way the West represents Christianity, especially amongst the newer and more lively churches and denominations. The songs and prayers are very emotional, touchy-feely. There’s sentimental music played on the keyboard as someone at the front is outpouring more emotion as a prayer. People are either jumping up and down or crying.
Because of my mental disorder, I don’t have access to much emotion. I have found myself unable to worship in churches, or pray, and I thought there was something wrong with ME – well, there is, but I thought it was this giant problem that I really needed help with.
When I returned to the traditional Biblical Methodist church last year, all of a sudden, I found myself able to worship, pray and at last, connect with God, in church. Why? Because worship in our church is not based on emotions or sentimentality, which can change like the wind. It is based on what is written in the Bible. It is based on standing strong in faith. It is like this in Taize worship, too, because Taize chants are mostly lifted directly from the Bible.
I think modern worship is great, but we need to get away from the sentimentality and emotionalism that has crept into church life, and stand on Truth.
I also think a diversity in church activities can bring a more diverse population into the church. Eg, for me, a pamper evening makes me feel sick, and other gay women say the same. I’m sure men feel the same! But a hike, climbing, abseiling, canoeing etc is attractive to both women and men. Getting away from gender stereotypes (yes, I bang on about this, but it’s so big in churches, and we wonder why some people stay away from church) and away from the middle class activities that have taken over, like a ladies’ pamper night and a men’s curry night, and just doing what normal people do might make more people feel normal in churches.
Also, doing more actively for charities might help. That is lacking big time in a lot of churches, whereas Oxfam and other charities are blooming as people, especially men, take up bike riding challenges, because they care and want to do something to help people worse off than themselves, and with Oxfam, they can do something physical and sporty and raise money.

]]> By: Jennifer Thorne http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/02/05/healthy-vs-false-masculine-gender-complementarity/comment-page-1/#comment-7711 Jennifer Thorne Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:14:53 +0000 http://blog.exodusinternational.org/?p=1141#comment-7711 Wow Randy, I just love this topic. As the mother of four boys ages 9 to 18, this to me is so critical to our (Karl's and mine) success in raising them to become independent of us and move into full dependency upon Jesus. They must embrace and celebrate all of their maleness in the fullest way possible. It is critical to their success as followers of Christ, as husbands and fathers, and as positive contributors to our general society. From a wife's perspective I had this revelation during the conference last year and wrote about it in my blog. I needed to embrace the reality that I needed my husband to be what God created him to be, a man. You can read more at: http://jenschatonthat.blogspot.com/2009/07/reflections-exodus-conference-july09-my.html Wow Randy, I just love this topic. As the mother of four boys ages 9 to 18, this to me is so critical to our (Karl’s and mine) success in raising them to become independent of us and move into full dependency upon Jesus.

They must embrace and celebrate all of their maleness in the fullest way possible. It is critical to their success as followers of Christ, as husbands and fathers, and as positive contributors to our general society.

From a wife’s perspective I had this revelation during the conference last year and wrote about it in my blog. I needed to embrace the reality that I needed my husband to be what God created him to be, a man. You can read more at:

http://jenschatonthat.blogspot.com/2009/07/reflections-exodus-conference-july09-my.html

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