Ted Slater with Boundless, who is a great guy by the way, posts:
So I’ve heard the same thing from two different people in two different states. The guys in their class or singles group seem overly affectionate with each other, sometimes even feigning homosexual interest.
A few weeks ago I may have seen a hint of this at church: A high school guy, whom I don’t believe experiences same-sex attraction, was acting peculiarly effeminate in his interactions with the guys in the worship band during practice. He was light-hearted about it; I’m just not sure why he’d joke about something like that.
I’m interested in better understanding this phenomenon, and may even solicit an article or blog post on it. But I just haven’t seen it enough to really know what’s going on, or to know if it’s widespread.
Maybe guys nowadays have just grown so comfortable with each other that they feel free to express their affection in an overly physical way, kind of like the way pro football players pat each other on the bottoms. Or maybe they’re looking to each other for emotional connections because it’s “safer” than looking for a meaningful relationship with a woman. Or maybe they’re indeed experiencing sexual ambiguity, and experimenting with homosexual behavior, something that’s become less taboo over the past decades? I honestly don’t know.
Have you seen this in your singles group or among your single guy friends? If so, please describe what you’ve seen and what you think about it. If you’d rather not leave a comment here, you’re free to e-mail me directly at edi...@boundless.org
I definitely have some thoughts but am interested in seeing what input might happen here, on our facebook page and on the original Boundless post. Since Ted was the one to post about this topic, I do highly encourage you to visit his post or email him at the above email address to share your thoughts with him too.
About Randy Thomas
Hmm, I’ve known a guy to flirt with other guys cos he knew he’d flirt, and he wasn’t attracted to guys, so it was a ‘safe’ way for him to do something he couldn’t keep under control at the time until he learnt how to control it. He had a lot of gay friends, and one of his brothers was gay. It wasn’t meant in offense at all.
I’ve also seen guys ‘acting gay’ as a way of messing around, but it can be offensive when straight guys or women act like that for any period of time, because for gay people of the same sex as the people messing around, their attraction issues are affected by it.
There was one night when two straight female friends flirted with me, and I heard God saying ‘change the conversation’ and I did, half-heartedly twice, and the conversation just continued like that. After, I was messed up about it and had thoughts I would never have had otherwise about these friends.
Also, watching straight guys flirting, it occurred to me that me and a gay male friend had never flirted, pretending to be straight, I’ve never seen a gay man and woman doing that ever, so why do straight people do it? It’s because they are actually making fun of gay people, whether they realise it or not. It’s like when Afro-Carribean/African-Americans call each other the N word. No one else can use that word without being in court or being killed!
I don’t know why straight people even think to joke like that. It’s not something that would occur to me to do with a male friend. Ever!
Hi Catherine.
I knew, know, a few gay guys that flirt all the time … with both men and women. It’s a communication style they picked up and one that our culture (here in the States at least) rewards. It’s approached as fun banter or being coy but many a mixed signal has been registered. It’s not often but I do see it.
Catherine H — thank you for your insights! You’ve given me much to think about.
Hmm, I’ve known a guy to flirt with other guys cos he knew he’d flirt, and he wasn’t attracted to guys, so it was a ‘safe’ way for him to do something he couldn’t keep under control at the time until he learnt how to control it. He had a lot of gay friends, and one of his brothers was gay. It wasn’t meant in offense at all.
I’ve also seen guys ‘acting gay’ as a way of messing around, but it can be offensive when straight guys or women act like that for any period of time, because for gay people of the same sex as the people messing around, their attraction issues are affected by it.
There was one night when two straight female friends flirted with me, and I heard God saying ‘change the conversation’ and I did, half-heartedly twice, and the conversation just continued like that. After, I was messed up about it and had thoughts I would never have had otherwise about these friends.
Also, watching straight guys flirting, it occurred to me that me and a gay male friend had never flirted, pretending to be straight, I’ve never seen a gay man and woman doing that ever, so why do straight people do it? It’s because they are actually making fun of gay people, whether they realise it or not. It’s like when Afro-Carribean/African-Americans call each other the N word. No one else can use that word without being in court or being killed!
I don’t know why straight people even think to joke like that. It’s not something that would occur to me to do with a male friend. Ever!
Hi Catherine.
I knew, know, a few gay guys that flirt all the time … with both men and women. It’s a communication style they picked up and one that our culture (here in the States at least) rewards. It’s approached as fun banter or being coy but many a mixed signal has been registered. It’s not often but I do see it.
Catherine H — thank you for your insights! You’ve given me much to think about.
Bromance, think Jonathan and David. Very emotionally intimate and non-sexual. Two men want to spend quality time with each other and are genuinely vulnerable and loving. they aren’t afraid to go to dinner together or go to the movies together. It really is just quality time. From the outside, it could look like a date. In fact, it can be called a “mandate.” but really its just hanging out.
Obviously the term comes from merging the words “Brother” and “Romance.” I think this is because, as in the case with jonathan and david (today), those on the outside might be tempted to raise an eyebrow because we are so unacustomed to see two men show genuine healthy love for each other. It looks like a romance between two men, but its just genuine brotherly love. it has nothing to do with eros but with phileo.
the feigning homosexual affectations is satire. because men in this culture realize that though what they are feeling and expressing is healthy and non-sexual, they realize its not something that has been modeled in American culture.
Frank, hi! Ever been to North Africa? Apart from the history and culture being wowza, it’s so great to see men being physically close in a non-sexual way, and no one thinks anything of it at all! I did have to turn around and have a look at one man resting his head (he was short) on another man’s stomach as he held him for ages! That was Morocco, just down a street in a normal town. So good to see!
I wonder if the way gay men and gay women are polarised in the way ‘culture’ has grown is to blame for the problems, like kids using ‘gay’ as an insult? If gay men making themselves into a joke to be accepted way back when, with that carrying on today, even in Christian circles, that that is partly to blame for straight men thinking it’s OK to joke around with effemicy and ‘acting gay’ etc?
Bromance, think Jonathan and David. Very emotionally intimate and non-sexual. Two men want to spend quality time with each other and are genuinely vulnerable and loving. they aren’t afraid to go to dinner together or go to the movies together. It really is just quality time. From the outside, it could look like a date. In fact, it can be called a “mandate.” but really its just hanging out.
Obviously the term comes from merging the words “Brother” and “Romance.” I think this is because, as in the case with jonathan and david (today), those on the outside might be tempted to raise an eyebrow because we are so unacustomed to see two men show genuine healthy love for each other. It looks like a romance between two men, but its just genuine brotherly love. it has nothing to do with eros but with phileo.
the feigning homosexual affectations is satire. because men in this culture realize that though what they are feeling and expressing is healthy and non-sexual, they realize its not something that has been modeled in American culture.
Frank, hi! Ever been to North Africa? Apart from the history and culture being wowza, it’s so great to see men being physically close in a non-sexual way, and no one thinks anything of it at all! I did have to turn around and have a look at one man resting his head (he was short) on another man’s stomach as he held him for ages! That was Morocco, just down a street in a normal town. So good to see!
I wonder if the way gay men and gay women are polarised in the way ‘culture’ has grown is to blame for the problems, like kids using ‘gay’ as an insult? If gay men making themselves into a joke to be accepted way back when, with that carrying on today, even in Christian circles, that that is partly to blame for straight men thinking it’s OK to joke around with effemicy and ‘acting gay’ etc?
Frank — I agree that normal romances are fine, and admirable. Indeed, guys should be more emotionally close to each other. I’m not questioning that. I’m questioning when it goes too far and includes a sexual element: hugging is fine, but cuddling is peculiar, for example.
Another cultural reference I see when it comes to “Bromances” is the show “Friends.” Those guys were very close to each other. I recall in one episode Chandler and Joey fell asleep on the couch together. over the course of the nap, chandler fell over and he rested his head on Joey’s stomach. The girls walk in and they wake up realizing the position they are in and are embarrassed. It was awkward for them because of the society we live in, but really they were doing nothing wrong. They were not “burning in lust” for one another as Romans 1 says.
Sometimes in things like this its hard to draw the fine line. the closer we get to the line the harder it is to see whether we’ve crossed it or are just toeing the line. Cuddling in itself is not wrong, but what’s behind it? I guess it comes back to motive.
Frank — I agree that normal romances are fine, and admirable. Indeed, guys should be more emotionally close to each other. I’m not questioning that. I’m questioning when it goes too far and includes a sexual element: hugging is fine, but cuddling is peculiar, for example.
Another cultural reference I see when it comes to “Bromances” is the show “Friends.” Those guys were very close to each other. I recall in one episode Chandler and Joey fell asleep on the couch together. over the course of the nap, chandler fell over and he rested his head on Joey’s stomach. The girls walk in and they wake up realizing the position they are in and are embarrassed. It was awkward for them because of the society we live in, but really they were doing nothing wrong. They were not “burning in lust” for one another as Romans 1 says.
Sometimes in things like this its hard to draw the fine line. the closer we get to the line the harder it is to see whether we’ve crossed it or are just toeing the line. Cuddling in itself is not wrong, but what’s behind it? I guess it comes back to motive.
During my time in college (1968-1973) by best friend, confidante and soul-mate was my room mate. Peggy. Neither of us had any physical attraction for each other (as far as I know), but we were extremely affectionate. Holding hands, resting in each other’s embrace, and even doing that publicly. Both of us were also virgins with very limited experience with men. People sometimes looked at us oddly, and we often joked with each other about them thinking us lesbians. It was great for me because I grew up in a family that didn’t do much hugging or touching and my relationships with my own two sisters were strained.
I imagine if that happened today, people would automatically assume we had a lesbian relationship. Everything wasn’t quite so sexualized back then.
I like what Katherine said about cultural contexts. Male on male affection has been far more prevalent in places I’ve traveled – Ireland and even Israel, for example. So maybe this will end up being a good thing for guys.
During my time in college (1968-1973) by best friend, confidante and soul-mate was my room mate. Peggy. Neither of us had any physical attraction for each other (as far as I know), but we were extremely affectionate. Holding hands, resting in each other’s embrace, and even doing that publicly. Both of us were also virgins with very limited experience with men. People sometimes looked at us oddly, and we often joked with each other about them thinking us lesbians. It was great for me because I grew up in a family that didn’t do much hugging or touching and my relationships with my own two sisters were strained.
I imagine if that happened today, people would automatically assume we had a lesbian relationship. Everything wasn’t quite so sexualized back then.
I like what Katherine said about cultural contexts. Male on male affection has been far more prevalent in places I’ve traveled – Ireland and even Israel, for example. So maybe this will end up being a good thing for guys.
In other cultures “bromance” in such intimate ways might be acceptable; but with the culture in America its an unhealthy practice – ESPECIALLY for Christians. We are called to be the salt and light of the earth. How are we doing that by sending mixed messages?
Yes, men are supposed to be comfortable and be able to show emotions. There are lines we can cross, and not cross; however.
In other cultures “bromance” in such intimate ways might be acceptable; but with the culture in America its an unhealthy practice – ESPECIALLY for Christians. We are called to be the salt and light of the earth. How are we doing that by sending mixed messages?
Yes, men are supposed to be comfortable and be able to show emotions. There are lines we can cross, and not cross; however.
I believe one reason that it happens in churches because it gives guys a chance to joke around and role play a leering, shameless persona. Christian guys can’t make these kind of jokes/comments in any other scenario. If they were to do this to girls, it would be disrespectful (and might be taken seriously), so they do it with each other as a safe way of expressing that particular humour. Now, one may argue that this type of humour should be frowned upon, but I think that’s often the reason it happens.
I believe one reason that it happens in churches because it gives guys a chance to joke around and role play a leering, shameless persona. Christian guys can’t make these kind of jokes/comments in any other scenario. If they were to do this to girls, it would be disrespectful (and might be taken seriously), so they do it with each other as a safe way of expressing that particular humour. Now, one may argue that this type of humour should be frowned upon, but I think that’s often the reason it happens.