I read a blog post the other day by a Rev. Patrick Cheng PhD, for The Huffington Post. He basically said that ex-gays were going to hell and really, really deserved it.
I never tell anyone they are going to hell. It wasn’t the fear of hell that saved me. It was the kindness, mercy and love of God that led me to repentance. In the years I spent as a gay-identified man I didn’t appreciate Christians telling me to “flip or fry.” Today as an ex-gay man I still don’t appreciate being told I deserve hell especially by a theologian who is selective about his tolerance, not to mention his interpretation of biblical truth. Telling all of us who’ve decided to live a life beyond homosexuality that we not only deserve hell but also that we deserve Dante’s 9th circle of hell is a fate I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.
It was a very creative damnation on his part. Far more creative than “flip or fry.” Regardless, I am thankful he isn’t God.
It comes as no surprise that when militant gay activists, or Rev. Doctor bloggers, want to point to what they deem as a “failure” of the ex-gay movement they point to John Paulk, the very type of success story that is so common in Exodus.
While Cheng’s blog post was mostly about the recent scandal of Dr. Rekers he said, in passing, that “several” years ago John was photographed leaving a gay bar. The fact is he was photographed leaving a gay bar but it wasn’t “several years ago,” it was a decade ago.
And though his initial response to being caught in a bar were, at best, dishonest, he ultimately confessed to making a really bad decision. While it was a shock with heavy consequences for all of us, it was an important reminder that pride goes before a fall and that sin flourishes in the secrets we keep.
Unlike the venom that Cheng directs at us, John was not “cannibalized” or condemned by his own as Rev. Cheng erroneously reports. He was suspended from his positions of authority at both Focus on the Family and Exodus and put on a plan of restoration. Everyone close to John from his wife, of 18 years now, Anne to Dr. Dobson himself stood by John. Even a gay writer noted the stark contrast between the Christian communities rally to support John vs. the gay communities eagerness to burn him at the stake.
I watched John make heart-wrenching personal amends, even in person to a crowd of hundreds of Exodus leaders, and my love and respect for him only grew as I witnessed him walk that out. It was honest, imperfect and humbling.
The truth, though, is that he never “went back”. He didn’t even entertain going back. Ten years later, John and his family are living the life they always dreamed of and have been tremendously blessed.
One of the goals for most in this post-gay Christian movement is to move completely beyond homosexuality, the Paulks have. I am very happy for them.
So when you hear, quite frequently, gay or pro-gay pundits excoriating John for being a failure … I won’t say they are lying or try to guess at their motives but they should know better by now.
And while most of our every day reminders of our frail humanity aren’t quite spectacular enough to be reported on 60 Minutes, I can personally look at the example the Paulks set in the aftermath of this situation and see great examples of godly confrontation, humility, forgiveness and repentance.
Rev. Doctor Bloggers may condemn people like John and me to hell, I love watching (from afar these days) heaven being made manifest in John and Anne Paulk. Dr. Cheng, you sure picked a poor example to condemn us because John and Anne Paulk are one of the greatest success stories I could ever tell. Thanks for that.
MORE:
Rev. Cheng’s post was more about the Dr. Rekers scandal. John was only mentioned in passing. Our initial response concerning Dr. Rekers can be found here .
About Randy Thomas
Another excellent blog, Randy. Mr. Cheng needs a few lessons in “the grace of God.”
Thanks and while I totally agree with you about Rev. Cheng … can’t we all use a deeper lesson on God’s grace?
Another excellent blog, Randy. Mr. Cheng needs a few lessons in “the grace of God.”
Thanks and while I totally agree with you about Rev. Cheng … can’t we all use a deeper lesson on God’s grace?
Indeed!
Indeed!
Randy … another great blog post.
I can’t believe it’s been 10 years. I think I went to a Love Won Out Conference just before the incident with John Paulk. The first testimonies I ever heard were that of John and Anne Paulk. They’re an inspiring couple, amazing authors with incredible insight despite the frailty of their humanity an example and witness of what God can do for a person who is willing to turn their whole life to Jesus. It’s not about being perfect but it’s about the lessons learned of the need for accountability.
I heard an interview on Focus a few years ago with John Paulk discussing this. He said something that was really profound.
He said .. “it freed me to admit I still struggled …” that may or may not have been the exact words he said but the jist of what it was he did say. It’s been a long time since I heard that interview.
I think sometimes people are looking for some generic experience to say … “this is what a Post-Gay journey should look like” and the person should take X amount of years to “recover” or “get beyond” or “become straight” … and well we know the journey looks profoundly different from person to person.
And I’ve come to see and believe that there will always be somebody out there who will condemn a person because of the temptations they face … none of us will ever live a life that is not challenged by temptation and perhaps Mr. Cheng does not even see the state of his own heart.
Randy … another great blog post.
I can’t believe it’s been 10 years. I think I went to a Love Won Out Conference just before the incident with John Paulk. The first testimonies I ever heard were that of John and Anne Paulk. They’re an inspiring couple, amazing authors with incredible insight despite the frailty of their humanity an example and witness of what God can do for a person who is willing to turn their whole life to Jesus. It’s not about being perfect but it’s about the lessons learned of the need for accountability.
I heard an interview on Focus a few years ago with John Paulk discussing this. He said something that was really profound.
He said .. “it freed me to admit I still struggled …” that may or may not have been the exact words he said but the jist of what it was he did say. It’s been a long time since I heard that interview.
I think sometimes people are looking for some generic experience to say … “this is what a Post-Gay journey should look like” and the person should take X amount of years to “recover” or “get beyond” or “become straight” … and well we know the journey looks profoundly different from person to person.
And I’ve come to see and believe that there will always be somebody out there who will condemn a person because of the temptations they face … none of us will ever live a life that is not challenged by temptation and perhaps Mr. Cheng does not even see the state of his own heart.
I think there seems to be so much pressure put on ex gays who are in the public arena. At times I think there is this cookie cutter expectation that many, many Christians expect from ex gays. When I got saved, there were a lot things I felt really good about myself, and I felt a sense of individualism. I’m not speaking of sin of course, but I just received the usual messages tossed at me. Its what God wants for your life or what does God want for your life? Yes, God’s way is the very best way because he knows what is best for us. However, I had to say, hey! wait a minute! What about what I want out of life? I needed to be my own person my own self. So, a sense of self can get lost among the predictability and stereotyping that is very prominent within the Christian arena. It seems like a lot of others, particularly ministers, get a bit pushy or a bit bossy expressing how one’s life should be. I think this stifles some people at times to the point that it back fires and some stray. You have to live for God, but I think you also have to live for yourself as well in order to be really happy. I think if you don’t know what to do, God is there to guide you, and help you along. I do believe there seems to be this automatic expectation how others want you to be. Man gets married, man has many children, man and wife live a life with the wife knits, and the husband wares flannel shirts and brings in wood for a fire. I think at times we need to tell others to back off, and stop watching my life to make sure I fit into a mold or ideal image how you think my life should be.
James, I totally get what you’re saying but wonder if some clarification isn’t needed.
Two years ago the Lord told me really directly, “your life never gets to be about you ever again.” I truly think, in order to follow Christ, we have to leave behind any part of our identity that’s been built up apart from him. The early disciples did it when they left behind their hometowns, their families, their professions, etc. to follow Jesus.
Yet I understand how easy it is, especially for young christians, to get saddled by a sense of obligation about “what God must want from me” that actually comes from the expectations of others or a burden we impose on ourselves. Before the Lord told me what he did he really reinforced my unique identity and purpose in Him.
I love how very little Jesus was concerned about pleasing others. He offended pretty much everyone: the crowds, the religious leaders, and his own disciples in order to please the Father. Like him, I want to be about pleasing the Father regardless of what others think. My greatest joy is to be able to end my day and hear him whisper, “this is my son whom I love. In him I am well pleased.”
Hey Matt,
I totally get what James is saying here and I don’t think he’s talking about surrendering or lack thereof of whatever identity that has been built apart from Him.
In the comment above I said …
“I think sometimes people are looking for some generic experience to say … “this is what a Post-Gay journey should look like” and the person should take X amount of years to “recover” or “get beyond” or “become straight” … and well we know the journey looks profoundly different from person to person.”
Not only do some people and even folks who start out this journey out of homosexuality try to find a generic experience .. a “cookie-cutter” experience and journey” … ie one must be married in order to show their maturity as a person because if one is not married that means the person is highly immature and unable to develop committed relationship. This thought is not always a correct perception to have. And it’s not always a correct perception to say THIS is what the Christian life has to look like and if there is any struggle whatsoever then something is wrong and we’re not living the Christian life that is expected.
Everybody has a journey and each journey is different. With regards to surrendering to the Lord the identities that we’ve built apart from Him … often times it’s just a matter of time when a person is a willing sojourner in Christ. I just think that what James is saying is that there is perhaps at times a burden placed on some folk that actually Christ never intended.
eg. One person could be led through a season of fasting while another on a season of understanding and knowing God’s blessing in their life. One could be led to stop watching TV for a season as I had been some time ago but that doesn’t mean that those who continue to watch TV are less “spiritual” it just means that we’re on a different journey that will look different but the common ground is the fact that with each of us we’re all on a journey of being transformed into the likeness of Jesus.
To a willing sojourner in Christ it really is just a matter of time and some people just need others to back off. I can totally relate. There were times I’ve actually told people to back off not because I hadn’t had a heart of surrender it’s just they didn’t get it and they didn’t get me and they only saw Christianity through their eyes and through their experiences.
I agree with Sarah, here. Great post. This journey is extremely varied and diverse. If I can take the liberty of using the broad label of “post-gay” for myself and all the individuals I’ve met (even though everyone labels himself or herself differently, with some continuing to use the terms “gay” and “lesbian” and others identifying as “ex-gay” or “heterosexual,” and even more refusing to identify at all), I can say that “post-gays” have just as diverse of lives as any other demographic.
I know people who still relate well and are involved in some aspects of the gay community and others who have needed to completely distance themselves in order to live life according to their values. I know people, including myself, who still identify as gay to a certain extent but find our particular calling in celibacy and service to the church. I know plenty of married folks, folks with children, folks in ministry, and I have to say that everyone has a unique story, a unique set of views, a unique outlook on such controversial topics as politics and psychology, and a unique relationship with Christ. No one’s journey is perfect, and we all fall short of our stated goals and values (and even those values change over time), but I have to say that regardless of where one falls on the spectrum, there’s a pretty strong and very evident commitment to Christ in pretty much all of the “post-gays” that I’ve met.
Now if we could only find a better term for this demographic. Haha.
Hey College Jay,
I have to say that you and I both have a similar views but differ with some.
I have said before possibly elsewhere that I do commend those who have made the decision for celibacy when it comes to their sexuality for religious and moral views and values. A person has to start somewhere and then from their I think then we aught to be able to in fellowship with each other walk out our faith together while encouraging each other towards our commitment to Christ regardless if that path leads to celibacy or a healthy heterosexual lifestyle.
The whole testimony with John Paulk and part of that testimony being found walking out of a gay bar a decade ago … the part in fellowship walk out our faith together encouraging each other towards our commitment to Christ looks very much so walking with a person with the highs and lows of the journey including the eb and flow of healing that’s more cyclical then it is a straight path that keeps going up and up and beyond, we’re not informed well if we think that our healing will be a clean easy path all the way up without a few set backs here and there. What takes us to the next level towards deeper healing in Christ is primarily a willingness to learn from our mistakes and to have the humility to learn from others, as well as the courage to keep ourselves accountable to others. Sometimes we’re quick to write people off, and the gay activists are quick to point out mistakes made to fit their agenda with ill regard to the person on a journey with Christ.
I think there seems to be so much pressure put on ex gays who are in the public arena. At times I think there is this cookie cutter expectation that many, many Christians expect from ex gays. When I got saved, there were a lot things I felt really good about myself, and I felt a sense of individualism. I’m not speaking of sin of course, but I just received the usual messages tossed at me. Its what God wants for your life or what does God want for your life? Yes, God’s way is the very best way because he knows what is best for us. However, I had to say, hey! wait a minute! What about what I want out of life? I needed to be my own person my own self. So, a sense of self can get lost among the predictability and stereotyping that is very prominent within the Christian arena. It seems like a lot of others, particularly ministers, get a bit pushy or a bit bossy expressing how one’s life should be. I think this stifles some people at times to the point that it back fires and some stray. You have to live for God, but I think you also have to live for yourself as well in order to be really happy. I think if you don’t know what to do, God is there to guide you, and help you along. I do believe there seems to be this automatic expectation how others want you to be. Man gets married, man has many children, man and wife live a life with the wife knits, and the husband wares flannel shirts and brings in wood for a fire. I think at times we need to tell others to back off, and stop watching my life to make sure I fit into a mold or ideal image how you think my life should be.
James, I totally get what you’re saying but wonder if some clarification isn’t needed.
Two years ago the Lord told me really directly, “your life never gets to be about you ever again.” I truly think, in order to follow Christ, we have to leave behind any part of our identity that’s been built up apart from him. The early disciples did it when they left behind their hometowns, their families, their professions, etc. to follow Jesus.
Yet I understand how easy it is, especially for young christians, to get saddled by a sense of obligation about “what God must want from me” that actually comes from the expectations of others or a burden we impose on ourselves. Before the Lord told me what he did he really reinforced my unique identity and purpose in Him.
I love how very little Jesus was concerned about pleasing others. He offended pretty much everyone: the crowds, the religious leaders, and his own disciples in order to please the Father. Like him, I want to be about pleasing the Father regardless of what others think. My greatest joy is to be able to end my day and hear him whisper, “this is my son whom I love. In him I am well pleased.”
Hey Matt,
I totally get what James is saying here and I don’t think he’s talking about surrendering or lack thereof of whatever identity that has been built apart from Him.
In the comment above I said …
“I think sometimes people are looking for some generic experience to say … “this is what a Post-Gay journey should look like” and the person should take X amount of years to “recover” or “get beyond” or “become straight” … and well we know the journey looks profoundly different from person to person.”
Not only do some people and even folks who start out this journey out of homosexuality try to find a generic experience .. a “cookie-cutter” experience and journey” … ie one must be married in order to show their maturity as a person because if one is not married that means the person is highly immature and unable to develop committed relationship. This thought is not always a correct perception to have. And it’s not always a correct perception to say THIS is what the Christian life has to look like and if there is any struggle whatsoever then something is wrong and we’re not living the Christian life that is expected.
Everybody has a journey and each journey is different. With regards to surrendering to the Lord the identities that we’ve built apart from Him … often times it’s just a matter of time when a person is a willing sojourner in Christ. I just think that what James is saying is that there is perhaps at times a burden placed on some folk that actually Christ never intended.
eg. One person could be led through a season of fasting while another on a season of understanding and knowing God’s blessing in their life. One could be led to stop watching TV for a season as I had been some time ago but that doesn’t mean that those who continue to watch TV are less “spiritual” it just means that we’re on a different journey that will look different but the common ground is the fact that with each of us we’re all on a journey of being transformed into the likeness of Jesus.
To a willing sojourner in Christ it really is just a matter of time and some people just need others to back off. I can totally relate. There were times I’ve actually told people to back off not because I hadn’t had a heart of surrender it’s just they didn’t get it and they didn’t get me and they only saw Christianity through their eyes and through their experiences.
I agree with Sarah, here. Great post. This journey is extremely varied and diverse. If I can take the liberty of using the broad label of “post-gay” for myself and all the individuals I’ve met (even though everyone labels himself or herself differently, with some continuing to use the terms “gay” and “lesbian” and others identifying as “ex-gay” or “heterosexual,” and even more refusing to identify at all), I can say that “post-gays” have just as diverse of lives as any other demographic.
I know people who still relate well and are involved in some aspects of the gay community and others who have needed to completely distance themselves in order to live life according to their values. I know people, including myself, who still identify as gay to a certain extent but find our particular calling in celibacy and service to the church. I know plenty of married folks, folks with children, folks in ministry, and I have to say that everyone has a unique story, a unique set of views, a unique outlook on such controversial topics as politics and psychology, and a unique relationship with Christ. No one’s journey is perfect, and we all fall short of our stated goals and values (and even those values change over time), but I have to say that regardless of where one falls on the spectrum, there’s a pretty strong and very evident commitment to Christ in pretty much all of the “post-gays” that I’ve met.
Now if we could only find a better term for this demographic. Haha.
Hey College Jay,
I have to say that you and I both have a similar views but differ with some.
I have said before possibly elsewhere that I do commend those who have made the decision for celibacy when it comes to their sexuality for religious and moral views and values. A person has to start somewhere and then from their I think then we aught to be able to in fellowship with each other walk out our faith together while encouraging each other towards our commitment to Christ regardless if that path leads to celibacy or a healthy heterosexual lifestyle.
The whole testimony with John Paulk and part of that testimony being found walking out of a gay bar a decade ago … the part in fellowship walk out our faith together encouraging each other towards our commitment to Christ looks very much so walking with a person with the highs and lows of the journey including the eb and flow of healing that’s more cyclical then it is a straight path that keeps going up and up and beyond, we’re not informed well if we think that our healing will be a clean easy path all the way up without a few set backs here and there. What takes us to the next level towards deeper healing in Christ is primarily a willingness to learn from our mistakes and to have the humility to learn from others, as well as the courage to keep ourselves accountable to others. Sometimes we’re quick to write people off, and the gay activists are quick to point out mistakes made to fit their agenda with ill regard to the person on a journey with Christ.
As we know from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, there were indeed those in the early church who left their homosexuality for Christ. Fast forward 20 centuries and men and women are STILL finding in Christ the joy that far exceeds what they had in their pre-Christ life (no matter what their sin was). And whether in the first century or today, there have been mockers and scoffers. So today Rev. Cheng numbers himself among that group. So be it. When it comes right down to it, everyone chooses what they want out of life. If others find satisfaction pursuing an actively gay life, I scratch my head in wonderment, and just affirm that’s not what I choose. And I reserve the right to help others who are not content to find a way out too. I resent it when others suggest that John Paulk or Randy or Alan or Anne or others should not use their talents and their voice to share their experience with others who are hurting by the choices they’ve made.
But even if someone finds satisfaction in an actively gay life, shouldn’t we continue to witness to them? Christianity is not about finding satisfaction. I have no doubt that a sinner can be totally satisfied with what this world has to offer. After all, those who only hunger for the world are going to be fully satisfied by the world. I didn’t choose Christ because it was what I wanted out of life. I had far more happiness and stability in my life before Him. (Not joy, mind you, which is quite distinct from happiness). I love and trust Jesus, not because it’s useful or because it has given me more satisfaction than what I had before Him, but because I fear a Holy God and know my sin, I dread Hell’s worms and fire, and I long for Heaven’s joy and peace and eternal communion with God.
Perhaps this is a defense of the “flip or fry” approach. I think that just scratching heads in wonderment at those who are happy without Jesus stops short of the Gospel. We can’t just say that we’ve made a different choice. Even if one is totally content, we should still help them find a way out because eternity is at stake. Of course they are happy and content! But as Christians, we have to show them that happiness is not what this is about. When the Bible uses the term “fear,” it does mean fear. We have a Holy God and we need to be in right relationship with Him, and how happy or satisfied we are in this life is pretty secondary, if not tertiary, to that.
Jay, you have articulated why I struggle so much with the whole “congruence” movement. That’s one of the newer counseling buzzwords. The idea falls short of what Christ intended. We are not to get cozy with the world or seek some kind of spiritual congruence with worldly lusts. We are to love all sinners, hate our own sins above theirs and be loving and compassionate enough to offer them truth, knowing we can never force anyone (as Christ does not) to accept it.
I actually don’t know how what I said goes against the idea of “congruence” at all. I mean, if you’re using the counseling term, “congruence” simply means helping a client live a stable, healthy, and content life according to his or her values — meaning that one has to first help the client define what his or her values are. (This is opposed to the “change” model which measures success based on one’s transition from homosexual desires to heterosexual ones). Both of these are secular counseling options (although I know Christian counselors use them as well). I was speaking more about the duties of Christians in the non-professional realm to spread the Gospel.
Isn’t “values” the loaded term here? As I read your previous comments, I saw you making a distinction between Christian values and worldly values. Everyone has some kind of belief system, secular or faith-based. Those who consider themselves to be happy expressing same-sex sexuality — even some who are Christians — are apparently finding some kind of congruence between that expression and their beliefs. But we can’t all be right or wrong. There is a line of demarcation somewhere.
Yes, we are under compulsion to share the good news of the Gospel with those who are lost or deceived. Counselors who are also believers are in a tight spot. Does the Great Commission demand that they refer those seeking congruence with “values” that fall outside their own beliefs to secular counselors? It would me, were I in their shoes. It is very difficult to marry the Christian faith and psychology, which is secularly rooted as it is generally practiced and understood. You can put it through a biblical filter, but that can be tricky and even dangerous. Sin is still sin, and we ought to be loath to sanction it under any circumstances.
I do allow for helping someone who may be experiencing life-threatening depression, for instance, regardless of that person’s beliefs. Love covers it all. That’s like Emergency Room counseling, But once that crisis is resolved, what then?
I just didn’t mention counseling in my first comment. I was referring to the attitude of, “Well, if someone else is happy I shouldn’t try to persuade them. I just wasn’t happy in the gay lifestyle so I chose to leave.” Happiness shouldn’t be our motivation to pursue holiness, nor should someone else’s happiness hinder us from proclaiming the Gospel to them. Happiness, after all, doesn’t save, even if it may be a nice thing to have.
I don’t think I could be a secular counselor, precisely because I wouldn’t want to help someone achieve contentment with a lifestyle (any lifestyle, not just an actively gay one) that went against my principles and beliefs as a Christian. But that’s just me. However, if I were a counselor (and I most assuredly am not), I have a feeling I would be more along the lines of a “congruence” counselor than a “change” counselor. As a Christian counselor, though, I’d have the assurance of knowing that my clients’ values were pretty similar to my own. But you’re right, the marriage of the Christian faith and psychology is indeed a shaky one.
I’ve taken one counseling course
That doesn’t make me a counselor but I have come to develop some views with regards to counseling … what is safe and what is not safe from a position of the relational dynamics between a counselor and the client … one of them being one of a person being in the position of somebody in a role that creates this power play between two people where one is more vulnerable and the client being that person that becomes more vulnerable.
Where I separate myself from secular counselors is the fact that I do not believe that I can heal myself and while I can come to a place of contentment I may or may not be on the side of salvation so contentment is not a sign of emotional health. I do believe that I need to look towards an outside source other than myself for this healing journey.
So, with all that in mind …
I wouldn’t have a problem being a counselor in the secular field. When I do reach my goals towards a Masters in Social Work and Counseling I’ll not only have my training in the secular but also be working for a season in the secular field. I don’t believe that for me this would go against my values and morals because ultimately I cannot make a person choose and I wouldn’t want to be in a position where a client would become dependent upon me to make the choice for them. And so with that in mind, even if I were to work in the Christian spectrum of counseling I wouldn’t be directing the client but the client would be directing themselves. As a counselor one becomes the facilitator to ones process and the client goes where the client wants to. I just have a sense that it is possible to be working in the secular and to find a client who just might be leaning towards not being satisfied in the lifestyle and I think it would be just like God to send that person to my office if I were the counselor in the secular field because then I could facilitate that person’s process and not allow for any biases to shut down that process as most in the secular field would. And then, as a counselor I’d have my secret folder of resources that would continue to help that person to truly find out why they’re not satisfied in the lifestyle.
As we know from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, there were indeed those in the early church who left their homosexuality for Christ. Fast forward 20 centuries and men and women are STILL finding in Christ the joy that far exceeds what they had in their pre-Christ life (no matter what their sin was). And whether in the first century or today, there have been mockers and scoffers. So today Rev. Cheng numbers himself among that group. So be it. When it comes right down to it, everyone chooses what they want out of life. If others find satisfaction pursuing an actively gay life, I scratch my head in wonderment, and just affirm that’s not what I choose. And I reserve the right to help others who are not content to find a way out too. I resent it when others suggest that John Paulk or Randy or Alan or Anne or others should not use their talents and their voice to share their experience with others who are hurting by the choices they’ve made.
But even if someone finds satisfaction in an actively gay life, shouldn’t we continue to witness to them? Christianity is not about finding satisfaction. I have no doubt that a sinner can be totally satisfied with what this world has to offer. After all, those who only hunger for the world are going to be fully satisfied by the world. I didn’t choose Christ because it was what I wanted out of life. I had far more happiness and stability in my life before Him. (Not joy, mind you, which is quite distinct from happiness). I love and trust Jesus, not because it’s useful or because it has given me more satisfaction than what I had before Him, but because I fear a Holy God and know my sin, I dread Hell’s worms and fire, and I long for Heaven’s joy and peace and eternal communion with God.
Perhaps this is a defense of the “flip or fry” approach. I think that just scratching heads in wonderment at those who are happy without Jesus stops short of the Gospel. We can’t just say that we’ve made a different choice. Even if one is totally content, we should still help them find a way out because eternity is at stake. Of course they are happy and content! But as Christians, we have to show them that happiness is not what this is about. When the Bible uses the term “fear,” it does mean fear. We have a Holy God and we need to be in right relationship with Him, and how happy or satisfied we are in this life is pretty secondary, if not tertiary, to that.
Jay, you have articulated why I struggle so much with the whole “congruence” movement. That’s one of the newer counseling buzzwords. The idea falls short of what Christ intended. We are not to get cozy with the world or seek some kind of spiritual congruence with worldly lusts. We are to love all sinners, hate our own sins above theirs and be loving and compassionate enough to offer them truth, knowing we can never force anyone (as Christ does not) to accept it.
I actually don’t know how what I said goes against the idea of “congruence” at all. I mean, if you’re using the counseling term, “congruence” simply means helping a client live a stable, healthy, and content life according to his or her values — meaning that one has to first help the client define what his or her values are. (This is opposed to the “change” model which measures success based on one’s transition from homosexual desires to heterosexual ones). Both of these are secular counseling options (although I know Christian counselors use them as well). I was speaking more about the duties of Christians in the non-professional realm to spread the Gospel.
Isn’t “values” the loaded term here? As I read your previous comments, I saw you making a distinction between Christian values and worldly values. Everyone has some kind of belief system, secular or faith-based. Those who consider themselves to be happy expressing same-sex sexuality — even some who are Christians — are apparently finding some kind of congruence between that expression and their beliefs. But we can’t all be right or wrong. There is a line of demarcation somewhere.
Yes, we are under compulsion to share the good news of the Gospel with those who are lost or deceived. Counselors who are also believers are in a tight spot. Does the Great Commission demand that they refer those seeking congruence with “values” that fall outside their own beliefs to secular counselors? It would me, were I in their shoes. It is very difficult to marry the Christian faith and psychology, which is secularly rooted as it is generally practiced and understood. You can put it through a biblical filter, but that can be tricky and even dangerous. Sin is still sin, and we ought to be loath to sanction it under any circumstances.
I do allow for helping someone who may be experiencing life-threatening depression, for instance, regardless of that person’s beliefs. Love covers it all. That’s like Emergency Room counseling, But once that crisis is resolved, what then?
I just didn’t mention counseling in my first comment. I was referring to the attitude of, “Well, if someone else is happy I shouldn’t try to persuade them. I just wasn’t happy in the gay lifestyle so I chose to leave.” Happiness shouldn’t be our motivation to pursue holiness, nor should someone else’s happiness hinder us from proclaiming the Gospel to them. Happiness, after all, doesn’t save, even if it may be a nice thing to have.
I don’t think I could be a secular counselor, precisely because I wouldn’t want to help someone achieve contentment with a lifestyle (any lifestyle, not just an actively gay one) that went against my principles and beliefs as a Christian. But that’s just me. However, if I were a counselor (and I most assuredly am not), I have a feeling I would be more along the lines of a “congruence” counselor than a “change” counselor. As a Christian counselor, though, I’d have the assurance of knowing that my clients’ values were pretty similar to my own. But you’re right, the marriage of the Christian faith and psychology is indeed a shaky one.
I’ve taken one counseling course
That doesn’t make me a counselor but I have come to develop some views with regards to counseling … what is safe and what is not safe from a position of the relational dynamics between a counselor and the client … one of them being one of a person being in the position of somebody in a role that creates this power play between two people where one is more vulnerable and the client being that person that becomes more vulnerable.
Where I separate myself from secular counselors is the fact that I do not believe that I can heal myself and while I can come to a place of contentment I may or may not be on the side of salvation so contentment is not a sign of emotional health. I do believe that I need to look towards an outside source other than myself for this healing journey.
So, with all that in mind …
I wouldn’t have a problem being a counselor in the secular field. When I do reach my goals towards a Masters in Social Work and Counseling I’ll not only have my training in the secular but also be working for a season in the secular field. I don’t believe that for me this would go against my values and morals because ultimately I cannot make a person choose and I wouldn’t want to be in a position where a client would become dependent upon me to make the choice for them. And so with that in mind, even if I were to work in the Christian spectrum of counseling I wouldn’t be directing the client but the client would be directing themselves. As a counselor one becomes the facilitator to ones process and the client goes where the client wants to. I just have a sense that it is possible to be working in the secular and to find a client who just might be leaning towards not being satisfied in the lifestyle and I think it would be just like God to send that person to my office if I were the counselor in the secular field because then I could facilitate that person’s process and not allow for any biases to shut down that process as most in the secular field would. And then, as a counselor I’d have my secret folder of resources that would continue to help that person to truly find out why they’re not satisfied in the lifestyle.
Hey Randy,
Thanks for sharing this! I’ve often thought the same thing about John Paulk; that he reached a point where, despite any continuing struggles, he moved beyond gay, beyond ex-gay, and just lived his life as John, a man created by God and secure in Christ. Ironically, right after I got saved six and a half years ago, a woman came across my blog who had become good friends with the Paulks during John’s LIA days in San Rafael. I had just read his book, and she gave me a brief update on what he was up to at that time. It was a tremendous encouragement to me, especially since many people in the gay community at the time were still holding him up as example #1 of the ex-gay movement’s “failure.” I am reading “Strength Through Weakness” by Andy Comiskey right now and am again reminded of just how counter-cultural the message of Jesus really is. When we try to live life in our own strength we will fail; when we humbly confess our weakness to Jesus, he gives us the strength to do the things we never thought were possible.
Strength in Weakness is an excellent book!! I’ve read it through a number of times as it’s apart of the reading material for Desert Streams Living Waters program. I had also read the other book that goes with the manual.
I find that people are quick to judge and quick to write people off instead of ministering grace and reconciliation in a persons life and here with John Paulk is an example when grace and reconciliation is walked out in a persons life with a supportive non condemning community.
Hey Randy,
Thanks for sharing this! I’ve often thought the same thing about John Paulk; that he reached a point where, despite any continuing struggles, he moved beyond gay, beyond ex-gay, and just lived his life as John, a man created by God and secure in Christ. Ironically, right after I got saved six and a half years ago, a woman came across my blog who had become good friends with the Paulks during John’s LIA days in San Rafael. I had just read his book, and she gave me a brief update on what he was up to at that time. It was a tremendous encouragement to me, especially since many people in the gay community at the time were still holding him up as example #1 of the ex-gay movement’s “failure.” I am reading “Strength Through Weakness” by Andy Comiskey right now and am again reminded of just how counter-cultural the message of Jesus really is. When we try to live life in our own strength we will fail; when we humbly confess our weakness to Jesus, he gives us the strength to do the things we never thought were possible.
Strength in Weakness is an excellent book!! I’ve read it through a number of times as it’s apart of the reading material for Desert Streams Living Waters program. I had also read the other book that goes with the manual.
I find that people are quick to judge and quick to write people off instead of ministering grace and reconciliation in a persons life and here with John Paulk is an example when grace and reconciliation is walked out in a persons life with a supportive non condemning community.
John and Anne Paulk are one of the greatest contemporary redemption and restoration stories I know of. And Anne has been a great source of comfort and personal encouragement to me, as has her book to the women in my recovery group. I salute them both and pray nothing but happiness and peace for them and their family. I am a little slow in responding to this as I have been away and off the net for a few days.
John and Anne Paulk are one of the greatest contemporary redemption and restoration stories I know of. And Anne has been a great source of comfort and personal encouragement to me, as has her book to the women in my recovery group. I salute them both and pray nothing but happiness and peace for them and their family. I am a little slow in responding to this as I have been away and off the net for a few days.
I have been going to a Christian Counselor. My counselor believes that counseling can be applied to the scripture, I’m sorry I forgot which scripture, that states to confess your sins to one another. Also, he doesn’t use the worldly method of counseling because he said their value system in the secular world there is no such thing as being absolutely wrong. Yes, he does use the methods of psychology a tiny bit, but the word of G-d is what he depends on. He always says Jesus is here with us in this room, and he hears what you are saying. I’m sorry, but I much prefer a Christian counselor. It is private, and you speak to someone who doesn’t snap his or her fingers expecting you to get normal within seconds. I think some issues need some extra guidance like the recovery of homosexuality. There are many ministers who don’t know how deal with the fact that some sinfulness is a process of recovery. My Christian counselor understands that homosexuality is a recovery process. However, I do not doubt that there are miracles of recovery that occur. On the contrary, I’ve heard of many people getting saved, and their change was swift by the power of the power of the Holy Spirit and I believe that does happened 100%. But, like someone said on one of these threads, that we work out our own salvation with the Lord.
I have been going to a Christian Counselor. My counselor believes that counseling can be applied to the scripture, I’m sorry I forgot which scripture, that states to confess your sins to one another. Also, he doesn’t use the worldly method of counseling because he said their value system in the secular world there is no such thing as being absolutely wrong. Yes, he does use the methods of psychology a tiny bit, but the word of G-d is what he depends on. He always says Jesus is here with us in this room, and he hears what you are saying. I’m sorry, but I much prefer a Christian counselor. It is private, and you speak to someone who doesn’t snap his or her fingers expecting you to get normal within seconds. I think some issues need some extra guidance like the recovery of homosexuality. There are many ministers who don’t know how deal with the fact that some sinfulness is a process of recovery. My Christian counselor understands that homosexuality is a recovery process. However, I do not doubt that there are miracles of recovery that occur. On the contrary, I’ve heard of many people getting saved, and their change was swift by the power of the power of the Holy Spirit and I believe that does happened 100%. But, like someone said on one of these threads, that we work out our own salvation with the Lord.
Randy, I don’t care what you say — you are totally going to hell, dude!
Randy, I don’t care what you say — you are totally going to hell, dude!