Photo credit: TIME, Click Image to read "Gay Days In The Magic Kingdom"
From TIME‘s Gay Days In The Magic Kingdom:
Like pretty much every child who walks up Main Street U.S.A. at Disney World for the first time, Alix, 10, and her brother Evan, 11, can barely contain their anticipation. Evan wants to ride Space Mountain. Alix is so excited, she can’t even say what she wants to do. She is jumping up and down. It’s a typical Disney scene, except that Evan, Alix and their sister Jamie, a desultory 4-year-old shielded from the sun in a stroller, have come to the Magic Kingdom with their two moms. It is the 20th anniversary of Gay Days at Disney, and the whole family has traveled from Hickory Corners, Mich., to celebrate.
Gay Days is now one of the largest gay-pride events in the world. According to Watermark, a Florida-based gay newspaper that has been covering Gay Days since it started, about 150,000 people attended this June’s six-day gathering, which included 17 pool parties, a business expo, a comic-book convention, a film festival, an after-hours trip to a Disney water park (think dance music and guys in very small swimsuits), bobble-head painting and tie-dyeing for the kids, rivers of alcohol (and some other substances) for the adults and, on June 5, the great culmination: 20,000 to 30,000 lesbians, gays and their families and friends descending on Disney World, everyone clad in red shirts to signify their presence.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1995839-1,00.html#ixzz0qpoJkDCD
It’s worth noting that TIME actually showed both gay couples seeking to be mainstream and the gay party scene. On one hand you have the lesbian couple with children as opposed to scantily clad men at 17 different pool parties, the after hours waterpark party and “rivers of alcohol.” The article also mentions other very racy elements associated with the event.
One of the gay news blogs I follow (click through at your own risk, I don’t because I read their rss feed) quoted the one paragraph talking about people leaving the park immediately after realizing it was “gay days.” The quote alone makes it sound like parents willing to ruin their kids vacation because of gay people at the park. As TIME reports, maybe they had other reasons to leave …
Other gays pushed the boundaries of what the park might consider family friendly. One man wore a red T-shirt with three enormous letters on the front: “F-A-G.” Others carried water bottles that had been filled in advance with cocktails, since the Magic Kingdom does not serve alcohol. The night before, at the Gay Days event at Disney’s Typhoon Lagoon water park, a man had to be taken away by security because he was high on something and incoherent.
The drugs and overt sexuality at Gay Days are one reason some lesbians and gays are opposed to the event. “It hurts the cause to gain equal rights,” says Alex Wall, 24, a test-prep teacher and lesbian activist who has been called an Uncle Tom because of anti — Gay Days comments she posted on Facebook. “I’m all for having a good time,” she wrote, “but not at the expense of people’s family vacation.”
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1995839-2,00.html#ixzz0qpo859gB
Within the Christian community it also bothers me when Christian activists will go into these events, take a few tabloid TMZ worthy pictures and then post those as the only representation of what gay people are trying to do to our country. I always maintain that stigmatizing (anyone) is not Christ-like. Yet honesty is a Christ-like attribute as well. While the gay community is much more complex than this, there is a strong dueling undercurrent within the gay community of mainstreaming vs. overt public sexuality.
So the open-ended no assumptions based questions 
for this post is: How does one describe the gay community accurately and honestly? Did TIME magazine do a good job? Is there a gender difference on community goals within the gay community? (The article contrasts lesbians with the male party scene.) What is the best way for Christians to do outreach at gay pride events?
Final thought, God knows all the life circumstances and complexities for each soul at these type of events and He knows them all by name. His focus transcends events like this and His view is reality whether we see it or not. He is working in the lesbian couple, the children and the party people’s lives. It doesn’t matter what community or “lifestyle” we are a part of, God’s grace is more than sufficient to save and sustain us.
About Randy Thomas
How does one describe the gay community accurately and honestly? One doesn’t. It’s too large a group, and any attempts to summarize a huge group is pigeonholing and disrespectful. Mother Theresa calls herself a Christian, so do members of the KKK. So how does one describe the Christian community accurately and honestly? By ceasing efforts to put Mother Theresa and the KKK in the same sweeping generalizations, that’s how.
How does one describe the gay community accurately and honestly? One doesn’t. It’s too large a group, and any attempts to summarize a huge group is pigeonholing and disrespectful. Mother Theresa calls herself a Christian, so do members of the KKK. So how does one describe the Christian community accurately and honestly? By ceasing efforts to put Mother Theresa and the KKK in the same sweeping generalizations, that’s how.
Here are my thoughts. Any time you have a big party, or a parade, who are you going to attract? What kind of personalities?
Most likely, people who like to party. And people who like to party hard.
This is true for St. Patrick’s day, Mardi gras, heck, even the german festival in my town, and many other non-GLBT events. My high school grad night was at disneyland, and kids snuck in drugs and alcohol. Naturally, I would expect GLBT events to be no different from these other events. I think because we are a minority people just focus on how outrageous those party people are. I wouldn’t expect TIME to write an article about all the kids in my high school class who slurred on rides.
Like you said, the gay community *is* complex. No one can accurately describe us, because we don’t have *everything* in common except for being attracted to the same-sex. If anything, I think it would be interesting to research the personality’s of people who like to party no matter what the occasion, and no matter what your orientation. Because we are a complex community, I wish people would realize that we aren’t either all party people or the lesbian couple with kids. There is no gay lifestyle just like there is no straight lifestyle, because each one of our lives is different.
Somehow I don’t think anti-gay organizations would have a problem if a photographer ONLY took pictures of half naked gay men humping each other, and ignored all the “normal” gay couples or gay couples with their kids because it makes gay people look bad (when in reality, it should just make the people in the pictures look bad, not a whole community. People are responsible for their *own* actions). But you know, at other events where the party people go, it’s pretty rare that someone will make a poster using a picture of a passed out topless woman and say “Come to the italian festival!” It’s not interesting, gross, and a little sad. So what is wrong with not focusing on the party people and focusing on the families?
Is drug abuse/alcohol abuse a problem at GLBT events? yes, it is at all events. Should it be ignored and swept under the rug? Nope, it should not. Just as drug/alcohol is dealt with at any big parade/event.
So, while I get that gay events are fascinating because gay people are a marginalized people, I think it’s blown way out of proportion.
Given the mass amount of people at these events ( heard an estimate of 3 million in Sao Paolo’s parade, 150.000 at gay days) … I think the marginalization of gay people is decreasing.
I do agree that equal, if not more, attention should be given to the heterosexual antics at festivals and Spring Break and whatnot. And in truth I know more Christian organizations that go out to minister at Spring Break than for gay pride events.
Plus, I didn’t say it was wrong for there to be a focus on the lesbian couple. I was trying to point out that usually in the media you get one or the other (mainstreaming or the shocking stuff.) I thought it was interesting that TIME decided to talk about both. They aren’t the first and it seems to be an increasing trend to provide a broader view of these events.
Anyway, the article piqued my interest. I wanted to see what people thought was appropriate way to describe the gay community. So far, the Christians respond privately and the gay people I have heard from included one personal attack and pretty much “don’t even try to describe us.”
It is always an interesting exercise in trying to talk about correctly describing or talking about the gay community at large.
There is no correct way to describe the gay community other than we are people who are attracted to people of the same gender. We are diverse. You seem to have missed the point of the first poster. How do you talk about the Christian community at large? I have friends who are Quakers and Episcolpalians who are warm open minded and do not see gay people as sinners. Then we have people like you or worst people like Lou Engel, Pete LaBarbera, and Matt Barber who villify and demonize gay people. I definitely don’t make sweeping generalizations or even try to define the “Christian” community at large. In fact I think some of my friends would be insulted to be lumped into a “Christian” community at large with these people.
From what I experience, gay people (especially activists) talk in sweeping generalizations (some accurate, some not) just like everyone else. I was sent one post put forward by a gay blogger trying to tell conservatives who they truly are and who we (Exodus) as a movement are. They were incorrect on many important elements but … so? It’s just an opinion. I don’t take it personally or think anyone should be defensive about it.
Also, from experience, conversations usually don’t stop with a generalization. People of integrity bring clarification and while I don’t pretend to be an intellectual (I am very far from that actually) I do try to consistently point out and recognize that generalizations aren’t sufficient to define an entire people group. That’s why I asked the open ended question on how best to describe the gay community at large.
For example, is it fair to say that the gay community at large is for gay marriage? Is that an ok sweeping generalization?
If the gay community can’t be defined like you claim … how in the world would you ever be able to pass federal (or even state level) legislation based on “gay rights?” Or is “gay rights” another acceptable generalization?
So, back to one of my original questions, do you think TIME magazine did a good job of representing the gay community? … or should they have just focussed on one or the other (lesbian couple or parties)?
Actually I think TIME get a good job on the article showing both sides. That is the good thing about the GLBT community is that we are diverse. As for your gay rights argument that is just absurd. Do all African Americans have to agree before we pass civil rights for them. In the case of interracial couples should we have made sure both white and blacks were all ok before the courts allowed interracial marriages. Decisions on gay rights should be driven by what is right legally. My husband and I have been together 22.5 years. I just want the same legal rights as other couples. Religion has nothing to do with civil marriage which is where Christians trip up. My brother could go to city hall and get married with no religious service whatsoever and be considered legally married. On the other hand he could go to his church and have a ceremony but if he doesn’t get a marriage license he is not considered legally married. Like it or not in the US marriage is civil not religious. If you want your church to bless it that’s great but legally it means nothing.
Here are my thoughts. Any time you have a big party, or a parade, who are you going to attract? What kind of personalities?
Most likely, people who like to party. And people who like to party hard.
This is true for St. Patrick’s day, Mardi gras, heck, even the german festival in my town, and many other non-GLBT events. My high school grad night was at disneyland, and kids snuck in drugs and alcohol. Naturally, I would expect GLBT events to be no different from these other events. I think because we are a minority people just focus on how outrageous those party people are. I wouldn’t expect TIME to write an article about all the kids in my high school class who slurred on rides.
Like you said, the gay community *is* complex. No one can accurately describe us, because we don’t have *everything* in common except for being attracted to the same-sex. If anything, I think it would be interesting to research the personality’s of people who like to party no matter what the occasion, and no matter what your orientation. Because we are a complex community, I wish people would realize that we aren’t either all party people or the lesbian couple with kids. There is no gay lifestyle just like there is no straight lifestyle, because each one of our lives is different.
Somehow I don’t think anti-gay organizations would have a problem if a photographer ONLY took pictures of half naked gay men humping each other, and ignored all the “normal” gay couples or gay couples with their kids because it makes gay people look bad (when in reality, it should just make the people in the pictures look bad, not a whole community. People are responsible for their *own* actions). But you know, at other events where the party people go, it’s pretty rare that someone will make a poster using a picture of a passed out topless woman and say “Come to the italian festival!” It’s not interesting, gross, and a little sad. So what is wrong with not focusing on the party people and focusing on the families?
Is drug abuse/alcohol abuse a problem at GLBT events? yes, it is at all events. Should it be ignored and swept under the rug? Nope, it should not. Just as drug/alcohol is dealt with at any big parade/event.
So, while I get that gay events are fascinating because gay people are a marginalized people, I think it’s blown way out of proportion.
Given the mass amount of people at these events ( heard an estimate of 3 million in Sao Paolo’s parade, 150.000 at gay days) … I think the marginalization of gay people is decreasing.
I do agree that equal, if not more, attention should be given to the heterosexual antics at festivals and Spring Break and whatnot. And in truth I know more Christian organizations that go out to minister at Spring Break than for gay pride events.
Plus, I didn’t say it was wrong for there to be a focus on the lesbian couple. I was trying to point out that usually in the media you get one or the other (mainstreaming or the shocking stuff.) I thought it was interesting that TIME decided to talk about both. They aren’t the first and it seems to be an increasing trend to provide a broader view of these events.
Anyway, the article piqued my interest. I wanted to see what people thought was appropriate way to describe the gay community. So far, the Christians respond privately and the gay people I have heard from included one personal attack and pretty much “don’t even try to describe us.”
It is always an interesting exercise in trying to talk about correctly describing or talking about the gay community at large.
There is no correct way to describe the gay community other than we are people who are attracted to people of the same gender. We are diverse. You seem to have missed the point of the first poster. How do you talk about the Christian community at large? I have friends who are Quakers and Episcolpalians who are warm open minded and do not see gay people as sinners. Then we have people like you or worst people like Lou Engel, Pete LaBarbera, and Matt Barber who villify and demonize gay people. I definitely don’t make sweeping generalizations or even try to define the “Christian” community at large. In fact I think some of my friends would be insulted to be lumped into a “Christian” community at large with these people.
From what I experience, gay people (especially activists) talk in sweeping generalizations (some accurate, some not) just like everyone else. I was sent one post put forward by a gay blogger trying to tell conservatives who they truly are and who we (Exodus) as a movement are. They were incorrect on many important elements but … so? It’s just an opinion. I don’t take it personally or think anyone should be defensive about it.
Also, from experience, conversations usually don’t stop with a generalization. People of integrity bring clarification and while I don’t pretend to be an intellectual (I am very far from that actually) I do try to consistently point out and recognize that generalizations aren’t sufficient to define an entire people group. That’s why I asked the open ended question on how best to describe the gay community at large.
For example, is it fair to say that the gay community at large is for gay marriage? Is that an ok sweeping generalization?
If the gay community can’t be defined like you claim … how in the world would you ever be able to pass federal (or even state level) legislation based on “gay rights?” Or is “gay rights” another acceptable generalization?
So, back to one of my original questions, do you think TIME magazine did a good job of representing the gay community? … or should they have just focussed on one or the other (lesbian couple or parties)?
Actually I think TIME get a good job on the article showing both sides. That is the good thing about the GLBT community is that we are diverse. As for your gay rights argument that is just absurd. Do all African Americans have to agree before we pass civil rights for them. In the case of interracial couples should we have made sure both white and blacks were all ok before the courts allowed interracial marriages. Decisions on gay rights should be driven by what is right legally. My husband and I have been together 22.5 years. I just want the same legal rights as other couples. Religion has nothing to do with civil marriage which is where Christians trip up. My brother could go to city hall and get married with no religious service whatsoever and be considered legally married. On the other hand he could go to his church and have a ceremony but if he doesn’t get a marriage license he is not considered legally married. Like it or not in the US marriage is civil not religious. If you want your church to bless it that’s great but legally it means nothing.
What do you mean privately? Private messaged you? Is that better, do you prefer private messages? Anyways, I think this comment box is pretty handy. I think my comment was a little more indepth than “don’t even try to describe us.” I am a person who happens to be gay, and I can’t think of an easy way to describe us anymore than I could describe the “black community” or “straight community. ” Complex was one word you used, which is good. Diverse is also inclusive. Yes, the GLBT community is extremely diverse. What did the Christian people who messaged you suggest?
No you were more in depth but the first comment was basically “don’t define us!” and while you were kinder it was along the same lines (in my view.)
And yes, privately means either email, facebook or in person. Their feedback has been more along the lines of coming from the Christian worldview. Love the person, not the actions type of thing. Most of the feedback was just encouragement about the post’s concluding paragraph.
While I love my gay friends, I haven’t found the gay community at large (or at the grassroots) to be that inclusive. I can understand why most in the gay community wouldn’t accept people like myself based on our moral/spiritual beliefs. However, I find most conservative gay people (their description) being treated is shocking to me. Even the way Elton was savaged for performing at Rush’s wedding. To be sure, the gay community is very diverse but I don’t know that it is immune from the exclusionary response concerning those who don’t hold to the majority (in that community) opinion.
Regardless of the worldview or value system, being closed minded is a struggle we all have. It just manifests differently in different communities.
And Shawn, please hit reply under the comment you are replying too. It will help with the conversation flow.
In response to how you haven’t found the gay community inclusive: With all due respect Randy, you haven’t been “IN” the gay community for 20 something years? (Correct me if I’m wrong), just an observer from the outside. That doesn’t mean your opinion or past experiences count for less or aren’t valid. But I hope you can understand that people in the gay community won’t be very inclusive of you because your profession is largely viewed as being counter-producive to equal legal rights. You’d have a place at my dinner table, but it’s hard for people to be inclusive when someone outside your community is viewed as not being for equal legal rights.. Yes of course teh gays have their own “in house” discriminations and squabbles. Being gay doesn’t make anyone immune to other forms of bigotry. I’m glad you know being closed minded is a struggle everyone has.
Personal experience is valid, but not always correct or the general “rule”. The gay community in Los Angeles is much different to me than San Francisco, and I’ve spent years living in both areas. Though that’s my experience, I realize something else may have a completely different opinion….so who is “right?” Who has the *authority* to say “this is what the gay community” is like when our experiences are so vast and different? I think we should all recognize and respect one another’s experiences in the gay community, but realize our experience may not be the general rule. Ugh I feel like I wrote “experience” 1000 times.
As for the Elton thing, I can understand why people were shizzled. You already know I think it’s all publicity, but I can see where all sides were coming from. They’re celebs, doing what celebs do – making headlines
You said
After I said in the comment before it …
And while I personally haven’t identified with the gay community in 18 years, I have been directly involved much longer than you have been alive. I thought I was gay at the age of 10 so I have been dealing with these issues in some form or fashion for 32 years.
Now I feel old.
I hear from the gay community daily. I am sure you would agree that you don’t have to personally identify as gay to understand the gay community. However, I do think I also maintain a level of empathy as well.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I just wanted to expand on the comment of how you feel the gay community isn’t very inclusive based on your *personal* experiences
I know you deal with teh gays everyday, but it’s usually in some form of debate or responding to critics, no? ( I’m sure you do have gay friends and yall just put your differences aside). Surely that has to impact your view of the community.
Yes I agree, you definately do not have to be gay to be in the community or understand it. I know I’m just a baby 19 year old (20 next month, yeah!) but I have already heard so many stories about how different it was for gay people only 5-10 years ago.
For example, one of my professors spoke about how in olden times, gay people (men especially) never had the chance for any real romantic relationships. Not BECAUSE they were gay, but being gay was so stigmatized in the USA, the most you could hope for was a one night stand – MAYBE something more. Because it’s so much more acceptable to be gay, it’s possible for people in my generation to have normal, healthy, romantic same-sex relationships. I am so grateful to those in the past who have made that possible for me. I can even see things changing right *now* for gay kids younger than me. It’s amazing.
You do maintain a level of empathy, but like the example above, I think it’s hard to really truly know what’s going on when your main contact with the community is mostly in debate form and working with people who don’t want their orientation to be gay. (Holy run on sentence batman!).
Does any of that make sense at all?
oh and yes thanks for responding!
I’m having a difficult time understanding the concept of “the gay community not being inclusive.” Wherever you go, no matter what kind of community you’re in, you’ll find people who don’t like you and people who love you. It’ll never be either/or. I’m 5 years older than Shawn at this moment – came out 10 years ago – so I’m from his generation of gays. I agree with much of what he’s saying about different generations experiencing different things. Even conservative gay christians have a place to be conservative christians (who are also same-sex attracted). So even those whom many might consider “hostile” to the gay community indeed have a place within the gay community.
I know there are some people who, in the previous generation, grew embittered by shallowness, selfishness, and seeming hopelessness of certain facets of the gay male community of that time. No doubt their experiences would make them want to leave that lifestyle – but I’ve never met anyone my age who threw their hands in the air about any over-arching “exclusivity” of the world’s population of gays. Maybe it’s a generational thing.
Hi Emily, I’m glad you’ve noticed the generation difference as well and agree with your sentiments. Not to go too far off topic but the generational differences among gay men fascinate me to no end (I say gay men, because I am more familiar with that aspect of the GLBT community). A good friend of mine says when he was living in the 80s, gay men just assumed everyone had AIDs. Can you imagine? I really can’t fathom what it must have been like for 90% of my (gay) friends to have HIV/AIDs. Another example, my friend who is almost 40 is flabbergasted (in a good way) when he hears gay people my age talking about how excited we are to have children with our partners someday.
Okay I’m done, sorry I just get excited when someone says something that sparks my interest
yeah there is some degree of intolerance…I generally have to keep my political views quiet since many gays seem to be close to single issue voters, and like what we’ve seen with Elton John, can’t understand another choosing to affiliate with Republicans, even with we agree with them on just about every other issue.
I can’t speak for the lesbian community as I have little experience there, but I know among gay men there can be a definite divide between masc guys and femm guys (and I’ll admit to being a partisan one side of the that divide). that being said, others have made a comment about intolerance and divisions within other communities and I don’t know that we can say gays are any more or less open or welcoming of diversity than any other group.
Gahhh yes! It drives me crazy when gay people hate on the feminine or lispy gays. I work as a cosmetics artist, but that’s the only time i “look gay” or “Feminine” and man I have gotten some interesting feedback from the gay community. But that’s a whole other rant
What do you mean privately? Private messaged you? Is that better, do you prefer private messages? Anyways, I think this comment box is pretty handy. I think my comment was a little more indepth than “don’t even try to describe us.” I am a person who happens to be gay, and I can’t think of an easy way to describe us anymore than I could describe the “black community” or “straight community. ” Complex was one word you used, which is good. Diverse is also inclusive. Yes, the GLBT community is extremely diverse. What did the Christian people who messaged you suggest?
No you were more in depth but the first comment was basically “don’t define us!” and while you were kinder it was along the same lines (in my view.)
And yes, privately means either email, facebook or in person. Their feedback has been more along the lines of coming from the Christian worldview. Love the person, not the actions type of thing. Most of the feedback was just encouragement about the post’s concluding paragraph.
While I love my gay friends, I haven’t found the gay community at large (or at the grassroots) to be that inclusive. I can understand why most in the gay community wouldn’t accept people like myself based on our moral/spiritual beliefs. However, I find most conservative gay people (their description) being treated is shocking to me. Even the way Elton was savaged for performing at Rush’s wedding. To be sure, the gay community is very diverse but I don’t know that it is immune from the exclusionary response concerning those who don’t hold to the majority (in that community) opinion.
Regardless of the worldview or value system, being closed minded is a struggle we all have. It just manifests differently in different communities.
And Shawn, please hit reply under the comment you are replying too. It will help with the conversation flow.
In response to how you haven’t found the gay community inclusive: With all due respect Randy, you haven’t been “IN” the gay community for 20 something years? (Correct me if I’m wrong), just an observer from the outside. That doesn’t mean your opinion or past experiences count for less or aren’t valid. But I hope you can understand that people in the gay community won’t be very inclusive of you because your profession is largely viewed as being counter-producive to equal legal rights. You’d have a place at my dinner table, but it’s hard for people to be inclusive when someone outside your community is viewed as not being for equal legal rights.. Yes of course teh gays have their own “in house” discriminations and squabbles. Being gay doesn’t make anyone immune to other forms of bigotry. I’m glad you know being closed minded is a struggle everyone has.
Personal experience is valid, but not always correct or the general “rule”. The gay community in Los Angeles is much different to me than San Francisco, and I’ve spent years living in both areas. Though that’s my experience, I realize something else may have a completely different opinion….so who is “right?” Who has the *authority* to say “this is what the gay community” is like when our experiences are so vast and different? I think we should all recognize and respect one another’s experiences in the gay community, but realize our experience may not be the general rule. Ugh I feel like I wrote “experience” 1000 times.
As for the Elton thing, I can understand why people were shizzled. You already know I think it’s all publicity, but I can see where all sides were coming from. They’re celebs, doing what celebs do – making headlines
You said
After I said in the comment before it …
And while I personally haven’t identified with the gay community in 18 years, I have been directly involved much longer than you have been alive. I thought I was gay at the age of 10 so I have been dealing with these issues in some form or fashion for 32 years.
Now I feel old.
I hear from the gay community daily. I am sure you would agree that you don’t have to personally identify as gay to understand the gay community. However, I do think I also maintain a level of empathy as well.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I just wanted to expand on the comment of how you feel the gay community isn’t very inclusive based on your *personal* experiences
I know you deal with teh gays everyday, but it’s usually in some form of debate or responding to critics, no? ( I’m sure you do have gay friends and yall just put your differences aside). Surely that has to impact your view of the community.
Yes I agree, you definately do not have to be gay to be in the community or understand it. I know I’m just a baby 19 year old (20 next month, yeah!) but I have already heard so many stories about how different it was for gay people only 5-10 years ago.
For example, one of my professors spoke about how in olden times, gay people (men especially) never had the chance for any real romantic relationships. Not BECAUSE they were gay, but being gay was so stigmatized in the USA, the most you could hope for was a one night stand – MAYBE something more. Because it’s so much more acceptable to be gay, it’s possible for people in my generation to have normal, healthy, romantic same-sex relationships. I am so grateful to those in the past who have made that possible for me. I can even see things changing right *now* for gay kids younger than me. It’s amazing.
You do maintain a level of empathy, but like the example above, I think it’s hard to really truly know what’s going on when your main contact with the community is mostly in debate form and working with people who don’t want their orientation to be gay. (Holy run on sentence batman!).
Does any of that make sense at all?
oh and yes thanks for responding!
I’m having a difficult time understanding the concept of “the gay community not being inclusive.” Wherever you go, no matter what kind of community you’re in, you’ll find people who don’t like you and people who love you. It’ll never be either/or. I’m 5 years older than Shawn at this moment – came out 10 years ago – so I’m from his generation of gays. I agree with much of what he’s saying about different generations experiencing different things. Even conservative gay christians have a place to be conservative christians (who are also same-sex attracted). So even those whom many might consider “hostile” to the gay community indeed have a place within the gay community.
I know there are some people who, in the previous generation, grew embittered by shallowness, selfishness, and seeming hopelessness of certain facets of the gay male community of that time. No doubt their experiences would make them want to leave that lifestyle – but I’ve never met anyone my age who threw their hands in the air about any over-arching “exclusivity” of the world’s population of gays. Maybe it’s a generational thing.
Hi Emily, I’m glad you’ve noticed the generation difference as well and agree with your sentiments. Not to go too far off topic but the generational differences among gay men fascinate me to no end (I say gay men, because I am more familiar with that aspect of the GLBT community). A good friend of mine says when he was living in the 80s, gay men just assumed everyone had AIDs. Can you imagine? I really can’t fathom what it must have been like for 90% of my (gay) friends to have HIV/AIDs. Another example, my friend who is almost 40 is flabbergasted (in a good way) when he hears gay people my age talking about how excited we are to have children with our partners someday.
Okay I’m done, sorry I just get excited when someone says something that sparks my interest
yeah there is some degree of intolerance…I generally have to keep my political views quiet since many gays seem to be close to single issue voters, and like what we’ve seen with Elton John, can’t understand another choosing to affiliate with Republicans, even with we agree with them on just about every other issue.
I can’t speak for the lesbian community as I have little experience there, but I know among gay men there can be a definite divide between masc guys and femm guys (and I’ll admit to being a partisan one side of the that divide). that being said, others have made a comment about intolerance and divisions within other communities and I don’t know that we can say gays are any more or less open or welcoming of diversity than any other group.
Gahhh yes! It drives me crazy when gay people hate on the feminine or lispy gays. I work as a cosmetics artist, but that’s the only time i “look gay” or “Feminine” and man I have gotten some interesting feedback from the gay community. But that’s a whole other rant
Gender differences? Sexual orientation difference? Not as much as the common stereotypes would have us believe.
Judging by this LA Times article, a photographer would obtain ‘eye-popping’ shots of heterosexuals, men and women ‘gone wild’ at club Rehab, the now infamous daytime pool party in Vegas. This is a daily show of overt heterosexuality unmatched in the gay community (in terms of numbers, profile, visibility, location).
http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-lasvegaspools27may27
In my experience, gay men or more like straight men on the whole, in their underlying attitudes to drink and sex, when younger, they are a time of abandonment for both. The main difference is that the rate of marriage increasingly diverges thereafter and that is a big factor in explaining differences later in life. Gay men can still party (on the whole, though that is now changing with advent of gay marriage).
As the other poster explained, you are forming your opinions on gay men by looking at their most public personas and behaviours. The unnoticed private lives of the quiet ones are something you are not up to date on (i.e. me).
I think that is a good observation about male attitudes of drinking and sex. Doesn’t make it a good thing or a valid “rite of passage” for the young (in my opinion) but considering males tend to be more visual and adventurous (I am trying to be charitable with the description) it does make more sense.
Contrary to what others have said, I am not “shocked” by this behavior. The point of the post was to point to the fact that TIME is the one making the contrast by covering two very different elements within the gay community. Even my statements before the conclusion were informed by that article.
You also make a very false assumption by saying, “The unnoticed private lives of the quiet ones are something you are not up to date on (i.e. me).”
Perhaps you aren’t up to date on me or are reading through a false filter of interpretation. Three men (of the many I know) come to mind. All of who identify as gay, and I deeply respect their intellect. They are not the party type. Two are in serious monogamous relationships. One of whom is in a relatively new relationship (3 years) and the other for going on 11.
My post was about the TIME article and just simply asked honest questions.
In direct answer to your questions then:
I think the general thrust of comments is that ‘gay community’ covers a wide range of behaviours and types and Time, like most journalism, has to shorthand stereotypes to get a point across in a short space.
Time, like most journalism, errs on the sensationalist. There is in fact, no real story here since gay people are doing what straights do to the same level of excess. (Or less in fact, on a direct Disney vs Vegas comparison).
Gender differences are important since once example would be the inevitable case that lesbian couples having children will exceed those of gay men. Thus, community goals will differ in places, at certain times.
Outreach to gay men at these events is not a great idea – those attending gay days are the most open and self-respecting, gay pride types. There must other places where the less self-respecting and vulnerable type would be present. It hardly seems good idea with respect to authentic genuine outreach but rather, a high profile marketing exercise – which although legitimate, is only indirectly and tangentially meeting an authentic religious objective.
Lastly, my relationship, a gay one, reaches 23 years in September.
Thank you very much for answering my questions. I honestly appreciate you taking the time to come back and do so.
Gender differences? Sexual orientation difference? Not as much as the common stereotypes would have us believe.
Judging by this LA Times article, a photographer would obtain ‘eye-popping’ shots of heterosexuals, men and women ‘gone wild’ at club Rehab, the now infamous daytime pool party in Vegas. This is a daily show of overt heterosexuality unmatched in the gay community (in terms of numbers, profile, visibility, location).
http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-lasvegaspools27may27
In my experience, gay men or more like straight men on the whole, in their underlying attitudes to drink and sex, when younger, they are a time of abandonment for both. The main difference is that the rate of marriage increasingly diverges thereafter and that is a big factor in explaining differences later in life. Gay men can still party (on the whole, though that is now changing with advent of gay marriage).
As the other poster explained, you are forming your opinions on gay men by looking at their most public personas and behaviours. The unnoticed private lives of the quiet ones are something you are not up to date on (i.e. me).
I think that is a good observation about male attitudes of drinking and sex. Doesn’t make it a good thing or a valid “rite of passage” for the young (in my opinion) but considering males tend to be more visual and adventurous (I am trying to be charitable with the description) it does make more sense.
Contrary to what others have said, I am not “shocked” by this behavior. The point of the post was to point to the fact that TIME is the one making the contrast by covering two very different elements within the gay community. Even my statements before the conclusion were informed by that article.
You also make a very false assumption by saying, “The unnoticed private lives of the quiet ones are something you are not up to date on (i.e. me).”
Perhaps you aren’t up to date on me or are reading through a false filter of interpretation. Three men (of the many I know) come to mind. All of who identify as gay, and I deeply respect their intellect. They are not the party type. Two are in serious monogamous relationships. One of whom is in a relatively new relationship (3 years) and the other for going on 11.
My post was about the TIME article and just simply asked honest questions.
In direct answer to your questions then:
I think the general thrust of comments is that ‘gay community’ covers a wide range of behaviours and types and Time, like most journalism, has to shorthand stereotypes to get a point across in a short space.
Time, like most journalism, errs on the sensationalist. There is in fact, no real story here since gay people are doing what straights do to the same level of excess. (Or less in fact, on a direct Disney vs Vegas comparison).
Gender differences are important since once example would be the inevitable case that lesbian couples having children will exceed those of gay men. Thus, community goals will differ in places, at certain times.
Outreach to gay men at these events is not a great idea – those attending gay days are the most open and self-respecting, gay pride types. There must other places where the less self-respecting and vulnerable type would be present. It hardly seems good idea with respect to authentic genuine outreach but rather, a high profile marketing exercise – which although legitimate, is only indirectly and tangentially meeting an authentic religious objective.
Lastly, my relationship, a gay one, reaches 23 years in September.
Thank you very much for answering my questions. I honestly appreciate you taking the time to come back and do so.
I would tend to agree that short of attempting some scientific study about the rates of certain behaviors and trends among self identified gays and bisexuals, there’s no way to develop accurately sum up the gay community in one word. As others have noted, the self identified Christian community is broad as well. that being said, the most vocal Christians tend to be the most anti gay, plus many of us have our own negative personal experiences with Christians and the church, which tends to make us more likely to stereotype the group as being hostile to us and one we need to be suspicious of. You can’t even generalize the already diverse crowd at Disney as representative of the gay community. I’m a gay in Orlando, and you will never find me at gay days. I really just wanted to get out of town for that weekend. I’m a non partying non drinking Republican voting anti marriage (for straights or gays; why do we even want such a broken institution as civil marriage anymore anyway?) atheist who likes fast cars loud airplanes and has no fashion sense. At the same time I’m profane, blasephemous, irreverent ,and very promiscuous.
As far as outreach goes, I won’t be much help there. I have a long history with the church and am already well acquainted with Exodus, and I can’t think of anything that someone could tell me in a brochure at a booth that would overcome my qualms about Christians and their religion.
I would tend to agree that short of attempting some scientific study about the rates of certain behaviors and trends among self identified gays and bisexuals, there’s no way to develop accurately sum up the gay community in one word. As others have noted, the self identified Christian community is broad as well. that being said, the most vocal Christians tend to be the most anti gay, plus many of us have our own negative personal experiences with Christians and the church, which tends to make us more likely to stereotype the group as being hostile to us and one we need to be suspicious of. You can’t even generalize the already diverse crowd at Disney as representative of the gay community. I’m a gay in Orlando, and you will never find me at gay days. I really just wanted to get out of town for that weekend. I’m a non partying non drinking Republican voting anti marriage (for straights or gays; why do we even want such a broken institution as civil marriage anymore anyway?) atheist who likes fast cars loud airplanes and has no fashion sense. At the same time I’m profane, blasephemous, irreverent ,and very promiscuous.
As far as outreach goes, I won’t be much help there. I have a long history with the church and am already well acquainted with Exodus, and I can’t think of anything that someone could tell me in a brochure at a booth that would overcome my qualms about Christians and their religion.
Hello! My two pence worth/$58 worth…
Gay days at Disney?! Hmmm, maybe for the first time in my life, I want to go to Disney??!!!
Anyways, yes, my hrrrumm about gay pride is that is shows gay people as freaks. It shows gay people all dressed up in weird stuff, men almost naked, it’s very sexual. If straight people did half of the things at gay pride, they’d get done for indecent exposure, but because it’s ‘gay culture’, it’s acceptable. Gay pride does now have gay coppers and firefighters etc, but in small numbers compared to the ‘freaks’. Gay pride doesn’t shout ‘we’re normal like you!’ It shouts very much the opposite.
I think the Disney day could shout the same. It does have families going, yes, but it has the open partying and almost naked men. Sure, there’s the clubs that straight people go to where all sorts goes on, but that’s IN A CLUB, not in a children’s theme park.
I used to live in a town called Blackpool, where I grew up. It’s a seaside resort, and about 1/3 the population are LGBT. I worked in the fairground for a year, which claimed to be a family arena. No, it was incredibly violent sometimes, as the security guards in stab vests would testify. It was mainly straight stag and hens (parties of men and women before marriage) coming and causing havoc. It was a nightmare working there some days, because of the grim sexual things customers would say to workers in front of children. It wasn’t a place I’d want to take children. Women would walk around with rock (hard candy) in the shape of penises, sucking on them. Very little clothing, everything was overt. It wasn’t somewhere I would take children.
Are the ‘gay community’ inclusive? I find gay people as individuals and in groups will only be inclusive when they want to be. As a Christian who remains celibate, I’ve had a lot of hassle from some gay people. Others who took the time to get to know me were totally cool. I was very much judged because of my faith and lifestyle. Coming out of a gay counselling centre I went to a lot in Manchester (big gay population,too), I was stared at by the women stood smoking outside. Why? Because I had long hair, high heels, make-up etc. Yeah, I can wear combats with the best of them, but that day, I’d chosen to wear a dress etc, and I was totally stared at for it.
I’m a fan of the L-Word, and I think it’s a fab programme for so many reasons. But the way it portrays straight people – and Christians – is terrible. Straight people – except for Kit and Angus who run the lesbian cafe/club – are portrayed as boring, very straight-laced, don’t know how to relate to gay people, are homophobic and right wing etc. The portrayal of Christians is the same as the portrayal of straight people, but even more so. I actually wrote to the L-Word to say I’m a fan, and I’m a Christian, and don’t appreciate the way Christians are portrayed, and I got no reply, which is really sad.
I’ve also written to the leading gay women’s mag in the UK, DIVA, and complained about anti-Christian sentiment. The next week, there was an interview with a Christian who was actively gay, and there’s been articles by Stonewall (leading gay rights group) to say faith schools have no issue with gay parents, and will not tolerate any sort of bullying, whether it’s homophobic or otherwise, and they run ads for gay churches etc now, and print letters from gay Christians, which is fab. As far as I’m concerned, the more people know that being gay or whatever is not a barr to God loving them, the better.
Is there a difference in lifestyle down the male/female lines? I think the majority of gay women are looking for relationships, love, understanding, commitment etc, because they tend to be women who have been hurt emotionally in life, and women in general look for relationships, often mistaking a man who gives them sex for a man who loves them. I’m of the minority – but it’s a growing minority – of women who are interested in sex and not much else. There is a big shift in what women want and expect now. It’s now more acceptable for gay women to go to strip clubs, pay for sex etc. (Then again, lesbian prostitution has been big in some parts of the UK for centuries.) Gay women’s magazines advertise sex phone lines, porn etc. I have a feeling that the L-Word has had more of a sexualisation of gay women, like Sex and the City has for straight women. The L-Word does show that sex happens before a relationship or just as a relationship starts, which has never been the status quo for most gay women.
So I think there is still a divide down the male/female lines of what LGBT people want in life, but they are evening out a bit. More men are wanting commitment and babies, and more women are wanting sex and are willing to exploit other women to get off.
I’ve written quite a bit. Good job I’m not putting 5 pence in! -x-
Hello! My two pence worth/$58 worth…
Gay days at Disney?! Hmmm, maybe for the first time in my life, I want to go to Disney??!!!
Anyways, yes, my hrrrumm about gay pride is that is shows gay people as freaks. It shows gay people all dressed up in weird stuff, men almost naked, it’s very sexual. If straight people did half of the things at gay pride, they’d get done for indecent exposure, but because it’s ‘gay culture’, it’s acceptable. Gay pride does now have gay coppers and firefighters etc, but in small numbers compared to the ‘freaks’. Gay pride doesn’t shout ‘we’re normal like you!’ It shouts very much the opposite.
I think the Disney day could shout the same. It does have families going, yes, but it has the open partying and almost naked men. Sure, there’s the clubs that straight people go to where all sorts goes on, but that’s IN A CLUB, not in a children’s theme park.
I used to live in a town called Blackpool, where I grew up. It’s a seaside resort, and about 1/3 the population are LGBT. I worked in the fairground for a year, which claimed to be a family arena. No, it was incredibly violent sometimes, as the security guards in stab vests would testify. It was mainly straight stag and hens (parties of men and women before marriage) coming and causing havoc. It was a nightmare working there some days, because of the grim sexual things customers would say to workers in front of children. It wasn’t a place I’d want to take children. Women would walk around with rock (hard candy) in the shape of penises, sucking on them. Very little clothing, everything was overt. It wasn’t somewhere I would take children.
Are the ‘gay community’ inclusive? I find gay people as individuals and in groups will only be inclusive when they want to be. As a Christian who remains celibate, I’ve had a lot of hassle from some gay people. Others who took the time to get to know me were totally cool. I was very much judged because of my faith and lifestyle. Coming out of a gay counselling centre I went to a lot in Manchester (big gay population,too), I was stared at by the women stood smoking outside. Why? Because I had long hair, high heels, make-up etc. Yeah, I can wear combats with the best of them, but that day, I’d chosen to wear a dress etc, and I was totally stared at for it.
I’m a fan of the L-Word, and I think it’s a fab programme for so many reasons. But the way it portrays straight people – and Christians – is terrible. Straight people – except for Kit and Angus who run the lesbian cafe/club – are portrayed as boring, very straight-laced, don’t know how to relate to gay people, are homophobic and right wing etc. The portrayal of Christians is the same as the portrayal of straight people, but even more so. I actually wrote to the L-Word to say I’m a fan, and I’m a Christian, and don’t appreciate the way Christians are portrayed, and I got no reply, which is really sad.
I’ve also written to the leading gay women’s mag in the UK, DIVA, and complained about anti-Christian sentiment. The next week, there was an interview with a Christian who was actively gay, and there’s been articles by Stonewall (leading gay rights group) to say faith schools have no issue with gay parents, and will not tolerate any sort of bullying, whether it’s homophobic or otherwise, and they run ads for gay churches etc now, and print letters from gay Christians, which is fab. As far as I’m concerned, the more people know that being gay or whatever is not a barr to God loving them, the better.
Is there a difference in lifestyle down the male/female lines? I think the majority of gay women are looking for relationships, love, understanding, commitment etc, because they tend to be women who have been hurt emotionally in life, and women in general look for relationships, often mistaking a man who gives them sex for a man who loves them. I’m of the minority – but it’s a growing minority – of women who are interested in sex and not much else. There is a big shift in what women want and expect now. It’s now more acceptable for gay women to go to strip clubs, pay for sex etc. (Then again, lesbian prostitution has been big in some parts of the UK for centuries.) Gay women’s magazines advertise sex phone lines, porn etc. I have a feeling that the L-Word has had more of a sexualisation of gay women, like Sex and the City has for straight women. The L-Word does show that sex happens before a relationship or just as a relationship starts, which has never been the status quo for most gay women.
So I think there is still a divide down the male/female lines of what LGBT people want in life, but they are evening out a bit. More men are wanting commitment and babies, and more women are wanting sex and are willing to exploit other women to get off.
I’ve written quite a bit. Good job I’m not putting 5 pence in! -x-
Randy, I think you hit on something really important at the end of this article: God is the only one who is objective. Our views are entirely colored by our experiences, like the story of the blind man and the elephant.
Lately I’ve been realizing that even my own view of myself is incredibly subjctive. Often times I don’t know why I do things the way I do them, what causes me to respond in different situations, etc.
I honestly think, out of everything there is to know about myself up to this point, I probably know about 1%. If I take into account everything I don’t know about my future or who I will be, that number is essentially whittled down to 0.
That’s exactly why I have to trust God with my identity, sexually and otherwise. He’s the only one who knows what He created in me and why. He’s the only one who knows the desires He’s placed in me and the best ways to meet them. And He’s the only one who knows what my future holds and what path will take me there.
When I realize how much He sees that I never could and remember His covenant of love toward me it becomes easy for me to choose to obey Him!
Randy, I think you hit on something really important at the end of this article: God is the only one who is objective. Our views are entirely colored by our experiences, like the story of the blind man and the elephant.
Lately I’ve been realizing that even my own view of myself is incredibly subjctive. Often times I don’t know why I do things the way I do them, what causes me to respond in different situations, etc.
I honestly think, out of everything there is to know about myself up to this point, I probably know about 1%. If I take into account everything I don’t know about my future or who I will be, that number is essentially whittled down to 0.
That’s exactly why I have to trust God with my identity, sexually and otherwise. He’s the only one who knows what He created in me and why. He’s the only one who knows the desires He’s placed in me and the best ways to meet them. And He’s the only one who knows what my future holds and what path will take me there.
When I realize how much He sees that I never could and remember His covenant of love toward me it becomes easy for me to choose to obey Him!
I’m having a hard time responding to this question … but then again if I form an opinion on something it’s usually based upon my own experiences in Vancouver, BC Canada … the most liberal city across Canada and the States put together. In a lot of respect much like San Fransisco.
I just read in the paper how Vancouver is apparently leading the nation with hate crimes but the report neglects to mention that Vancouver probably has the highest percentage of GLBTQ’s living in Vancouver then any other major Canadian city.
It’s just common knowledge not to generalize regardless if we’re in the religious community or GLBT Community. Of course there are extremes but the extreme in Canada is not the extreme in the States. So … with regards to the GLBT Community in Canada and more specifically Vancouver … everybody knows of the diversity but one thing is true is that there is always an unconditional acceptance of all people. And then in our church’s all range from really liberal to very conservative and charismatic but even our charismatic is conservative in comparison to the States.
So I agree with Matt that our views are “colored” or shaped by our personal experiences.
Sometimes we are so consumed by our experiences that we cannot even respond accurately to the question with regards to TIME Magazine and if we think they did an accurate write up.
Personally when I look at it from a glance it appears to me that Time Magazine did not differentiate enough and therefore didn’t really communicate accurately enough to the diversity but rather it looks as if the magazine did a lot of generalization and clumping everything together while talking about each observation made at the time.
But today … after my experience with the media and columnists I would be completely surprised if there is ever a columnist, or a reporter, or media representative who actually tells the facts of the story. Instead, what we find are exaggerations, generalizations, misleading information, and never any corrections made after the fact … it’s always a reporting for entertainment often times at the expense of an organization, group of people, or at the expense of one individual faced with nothing but an attack on the persons character with no factual documentations to validate the opinions of the other. And Time Magazine appears to have just lumped in all in one pile without really writing about how diverse a community can be and not just the GLBT Community, but the religious community or the community of a City or little Town … I am sure one County is different from other County’s much like our Regional Districts in Canada can be quite diverse even or Provinces much like your States can be diverse along with different concerns each State or Province will have which will differ from each other.
I’m having a hard time responding to this question … but then again if I form an opinion on something it’s usually based upon my own experiences in Vancouver, BC Canada … the most liberal city across Canada and the States put together. In a lot of respect much like San Fransisco.
I just read in the paper how Vancouver is apparently leading the nation with hate crimes but the report neglects to mention that Vancouver probably has the highest percentage of GLBTQ’s living in Vancouver then any other major Canadian city.
It’s just common knowledge not to generalize regardless if we’re in the religious community or GLBT Community. Of course there are extremes but the extreme in Canada is not the extreme in the States. So … with regards to the GLBT Community in Canada and more specifically Vancouver … everybody knows of the diversity but one thing is true is that there is always an unconditional acceptance of all people. And then in our church’s all range from really liberal to very conservative and charismatic but even our charismatic is conservative in comparison to the States.
So I agree with Matt that our views are “colored” or shaped by our personal experiences.
Sometimes we are so consumed by our experiences that we cannot even respond accurately to the question with regards to TIME Magazine and if we think they did an accurate write up.
Personally when I look at it from a glance it appears to me that Time Magazine did not differentiate enough and therefore didn’t really communicate accurately enough to the diversity but rather it looks as if the magazine did a lot of generalization and clumping everything together while talking about each observation made at the time.
But today … after my experience with the media and columnists I would be completely surprised if there is ever a columnist, or a reporter, or media representative who actually tells the facts of the story. Instead, what we find are exaggerations, generalizations, misleading information, and never any corrections made after the fact … it’s always a reporting for entertainment often times at the expense of an organization, group of people, or at the expense of one individual faced with nothing but an attack on the persons character with no factual documentations to validate the opinions of the other. And Time Magazine appears to have just lumped in all in one pile without really writing about how diverse a community can be and not just the GLBT Community, but the religious community or the community of a City or little Town … I am sure one County is different from other County’s much like our Regional Districts in Canada can be quite diverse even or Provinces much like your States can be diverse along with different concerns each State or Province will have which will differ from each other.
I think Exodus should pull an Elton John/Rush Limbaugh type of thing and come to Disneyland for gay days and have fun, make new friends, and just get to know each other as people. Yup.
I think Exodus should pull an Elton John/Rush Limbaugh type of thing and come to Disneyland for gay days and have fun, make new friends, and just get to know each other as people. Yup.