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From the New York Times NYT (emphasis mine because I find it an interesting description):
With a laying on of hands, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America on Sunday welcomed into its fold seven openly gay pastors who had until recently been barred from the church’s ministry.
The ceremony at St. Mark’s Lutheran Church in San Francisco was the first of several planned since the denomination took a watershed vote at its convention last year to allow noncelibate gay ministers in committed relationships to serve the church.
“Today the church is speaking with a clear voice,” the Rev. Jeff R. Johnson, one of the seven gay pastors participating in the ceremony, said at a news conference just before it began. “All people are welcome here, all people are invited to help lead this church, and all people are loved unconditionally by God.”
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, known as the E.L.C.A., with 4.6 million members, is now the largest Protestant church in the United States to permit noncelibate gay ministers to serve in the ranks of its clergy — an issue that has caused wrenching divisions for it as well as for many other denominations.
Since the church voted last summer to allow noncelibate gay clergy members to serve, 185 congregations have taken the two consecutive votes required to leave the denomination, said Melissa Ramirez Cooper, a spokeswoman for the church, citing a tally that she said was updated monthly. There are 10,396 congregations nationwide.
The Episcopal Church and the United Church of Christ also allow gay ministers. And the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s general assembly voted at its convention earlier this month to do so, though the vote will become church law only if is ratified by a majority of the church’s 173 regional presbyteries. Two smaller Lutheran denominations, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, do not ordain ministers in same-sex relationships.
The seven ministers welcomed at the ceremony on Sunday had already been ordained and have been serving at churches or outreach ministries in the San Francisco Bay Area, but they had not been officially recognized on the clergy roster. …
I can agree that God loves everyone unconditionally. That doesn’t automatically mean that He loves everything we do or believe. Unconditional love for someone’s soul does not equate to unconditional acceptance of all they believe in or espouse. Sometimes God’s love is expressed in disagreeing with us on what is best for us.
A loving Parent will say “no” quite often to help a child navigate life in the best way possible. God, our heavenly Father, is no different. He created parents to reflect His Image in that way (along with unconditional love and many other things.) He is His own Person who is our Creator … not our equal. He defines us for us regardless of what we, in our very limited and finite scope of understanding, believe to be unalterable personal truths.
It is one thing to be confused, or not in agreement, as a lay person (general church-goer) but quite another to be a church leader teaching others the reality and mysteries of God. There is an extra measure of accountability for church leaders and how they lead those seeking the Lord. Any of us with any amount of influence need to approach this calling with a godly fear (reverential, prayerful and deferential to the Holy Spirit.)
These “non-celibate gay” (not scare quotes, the description was coined by NYT) ministers don’t have to answer to me and I don’t have to go to their church. That said, we both will individually stand before the Lord Himself one day … and one of us will be proven incorrect about this intimate heart issue (church leaders embracing homosexual behavior/relationships.)
This recent development should not be used as an excuse to treat gay theologians badly. While we may not go to the same church (I doubt these gay clergy would allow my beliefs a place in their leadership/church) I can respect their freedom of religion, religious conscience, speech, assembly … and more. We should be careful to not walk around with condescending judgment or on egg shells.
I understand the emotions and the feeling of liberation they must be feeling right now. Even so, while I must state that I think the ordination of these particular clergy is in Biblical error, my prayers for them will be informed by an understanding and abundant grace. My prayers will include that *all* of us will come to know God’s mercy and personal care even more.
About Randy Thomas
MANY are called to serve God, far fewer all are called to celibacy. Imposing celibacy on those not called to it causes , causes, well, look at the problems in the Catholic Church.
Henri Nouwen wasn’t a problem. Neither was Mother Theresa … or the multitudes of Priests and Nuns throughout the past 2,000 years (including the Apostle Paul and Jesus Himself.) Plus, there is the issue that there have been many celibate protestants in church history as well.
And, I think we are all called to celibacy outside of Biblical marriage. I hope you aren’t trying to stigmatize those of us who do live a celibate life because of our moral/spiritual convictions … are you?
Kathy, many are called to serve the Lord, be we are ALL called to deny ourselves and be obedient to Him. This means we must deny all of our fleshly desires and be obedient to HIS holy calling in our lives. This means we must live in accordance to God’s biblical definition of marriage. We all have to deny our temptation daily, so why equate celibacy with problems? If someone is being obedient to the Lord, trusting His presence, and believing He will meet all their needs, then there should not be any problems. Of course it isn’t easy. But resisting any form of sin is not always easy. Few people may be called to celibacy, but we are all called to denial of all fleshly desires.
MANY are called to serve God, far fewer all are called to celibacy. Imposing celibacy on those not called to it causes , causes, well, look at the problems in the Catholic Church.
Henri Nouwen wasn’t a problem. Neither was Mother Theresa … or the multitudes of Priests and Nuns throughout the past 2,000 years (including the Apostle Paul and Jesus Himself.) Plus, there is the issue that there have been many celibate protestants in church history as well.
And, I think we are all called to celibacy outside of Biblical marriage. I hope you aren’t trying to stigmatize those of us who do live a celibate life because of our moral/spiritual convictions … are you?
Kathy, many are called to serve the Lord, be we are ALL called to deny ourselves and be obedient to Him. This means we must deny all of our fleshly desires and be obedient to HIS holy calling in our lives. This means we must live in accordance to God’s biblical definition of marriage. We all have to deny our temptation daily, so why equate celibacy with problems? If someone is being obedient to the Lord, trusting His presence, and believing He will meet all their needs, then there should not be any problems. Of course it isn’t easy. But resisting any form of sin is not always easy. Few people may be called to celibacy, but we are all called to denial of all fleshly desires.
No. no. no, no, no! I can’t believe it! The Lutheran Church (OK, just the American branch) are ordaining non-celibate gay priests. Terrible. Terrible. I’m off to France this weekend, and no doubt will meet many Lutheran priests from all over Europe. I hope to have many conversations, as I am curious as to what the Lutheran church has to offer. I also have the privilege of having shaken hands with Father E.J. last year. He’s a Swedish Lutheran priest. He has been open about being gay by orientation since he was 15, especially throughout his process to ordination. He has always stayed celibate and single for his faith, to honour God. A great man, known to many SSA Christians in Europe.
Kathy… the priests in the Catholic church who have committed paedophilia did not do so because they are single and celibate. They did so because 1) they are attracted to children and decided to act on those feelings and 2) it is probable they became priests so that they had access to children and were trusted by parents, as per teachers and sports coaches who abuse children.
Celibacy and singleness does not lead a person to sexually abuse a child. Not at all. Look at all the married perverts in the world. Look at all the married perverts whose spouses assist or collude in the abuse, or are also the abusers. We have many examples in modern UK history of heterosexual married couples commiting rape or paedophilia together.
I am single and celibate. I hope to always be this way. I am very happy this way.
Am I attracted to children? Not at all. Will I ever abuse a child. Never.
As I’ve said recently in a post, Christianity would never have spread if it was not for the joyful sacrifice of thousands, hundreds of thousands of Christians for 2000 years. And many more for the millenia of Judaism before that. We need nuns, monks, priests and missionaries. I am so happy to be married to God. How many people can say they are definate that their marriage is forever?
I am so lucky to travel and have travelled and see the work that monks and nuns do throughout the world, and have the honour of going to the Taize Community in France to meet the monks and nuns there whenever I can, which is most years. In the UK and the USA, we do not have this exposure to the possibility of monastic life that many in Europe, Asia and Africa and South America has, and I believe we are so much poorer for it. Spiritually, our countries are so much spiritually poorer.
I could go on about this for a long time, but I won’t.
I am so sorry that one branch of the Lutheran Church is experiencing this. I pray for an overturning of the decision, for the reason of faith, honouring Jesus, the One who shows us sacrifice with joy each day. Bissous -x-
While I appreciate Catherine’s viewpoint, I think what Kathy said was right on. If one is not called to celibacy, then abstaining from sex does stuff to ya. It is a very powerful drive. Some men became priests to make mom happy, or escape from homosexual desires by trying to live a celibate life of service to God. My heart breaks for them because they often cannot remain celibate, and then have the compound guilt of not only defiling themselves but abusing another human being in the process. I cried when I watched the movie The Thornbirds. A classic example of people tormenting themselves because they think it’s what God wants, but it is really needless suffering, because God didn’t ask men who want to preach to remain celibate. Many a good Catholic follower has been forced to do this thing because of a ruling passed down by those who wanted to prevent priests from appointing their sons after them. They could have preached the gospel from a different religious viewpoint, and been allowed to marry, but they were forced to choose between following their religious beliefs or abandoning them in order to pursue marriage and the calling of God to preach. What a horrible thing to do to those who are supposed to be “free”. To choose not to have children? I think the priest in The Thornbirds would have made a wonderful father and husband, and the world certainly can use more of those! The Catholic church has created alot of sexual frustration and angst in many a man or woman who accept celibacy for social reasons when, as Kathy said, it may not really be their calling. These people live in torment. I believe satan truly enjoys that. God did not desire us to live in continual self-denial of the feelings He created for us to enjoy. Some He did call to celibacy, but if we burn with passion, we are NOT supposed to just bottle it up. The Bible says so.
Isn’t the Thornbirds fiction?
I think using the Catholic scandal is an opportunistic excuse to disparage celibacy. No one, in the history of the world, has died for lack of sex. God most certainly intends us to steward our sexuality in celibacy unless we do enter His biblical definition of marriage. Of course sex is a powerful drive but so is self-control. Self-control is more powerful in general and a super-naturally infused gift of the Holy Spirit as well. If self-control weren’t more powerful we would all be having sex with anyone anywhere at any time. Some of our desires aren’t of God’s making as well. That is also very scriptural.
Which gets back to one of the main points of the post, the debate over homosexuality (celibacy for some reason in this comment thread) … is really a fundamental disagreement on the authority of scripture and how that applies to modern life.
” … the debate over homosexuality … is really a fundamental disagreement on the authority of scripture and how that applies to modern life.”
Right on, Randy. The celibacy fear or even the belief that some are called to celibacy have become a red herring here. Those whom God calls in any wise He equips. And He requires much of those He calls. Of every Christian, He requires obedience to Him and not to man-made creeds. There is no spiritual illumination without submission to Christ and the acts of obedience that follow. We can’t be sovereign demigods. There is only one Authority.
No. no. no, no, no! I can’t believe it! The Lutheran Church (OK, just the American branch) are ordaining non-celibate gay priests. Terrible. Terrible. I’m off to France this weekend, and no doubt will meet many Lutheran priests from all over Europe. I hope to have many conversations, as I am curious as to what the Lutheran church has to offer. I also have the privilege of having shaken hands with Father E.J. last year. He’s a Swedish Lutheran priest. He has been open about being gay by orientation since he was 15, especially throughout his process to ordination. He has always stayed celibate and single for his faith, to honour God. A great man, known to many SSA Christians in Europe.
Kathy… the priests in the Catholic church who have committed paedophilia did not do so because they are single and celibate. They did so because 1) they are attracted to children and decided to act on those feelings and 2) it is probable they became priests so that they had access to children and were trusted by parents, as per teachers and sports coaches who abuse children.
Celibacy and singleness does not lead a person to sexually abuse a child. Not at all. Look at all the married perverts in the world. Look at all the married perverts whose spouses assist or collude in the abuse, or are also the abusers. We have many examples in modern UK history of heterosexual married couples commiting rape or paedophilia together.
I am single and celibate. I hope to always be this way. I am very happy this way.
Am I attracted to children? Not at all. Will I ever abuse a child. Never.
As I’ve said recently in a post, Christianity would never have spread if it was not for the joyful sacrifice of thousands, hundreds of thousands of Christians for 2000 years. And many more for the millenia of Judaism before that. We need nuns, monks, priests and missionaries. I am so happy to be married to God. How many people can say they are definate that their marriage is forever?
I am so lucky to travel and have travelled and see the work that monks and nuns do throughout the world, and have the honour of going to the Taize Community in France to meet the monks and nuns there whenever I can, which is most years. In the UK and the USA, we do not have this exposure to the possibility of monastic life that many in Europe, Asia and Africa and South America has, and I believe we are so much poorer for it. Spiritually, our countries are so much spiritually poorer.
I could go on about this for a long time, but I won’t.
I am so sorry that one branch of the Lutheran Church is experiencing this. I pray for an overturning of the decision, for the reason of faith, honouring Jesus, the One who shows us sacrifice with joy each day. Bissous -x-
While I appreciate Catherine’s viewpoint, I think what Kathy said was right on. If one is not called to celibacy, then abstaining from sex does stuff to ya. It is a very powerful drive. Some men became priests to make mom happy, or escape from homosexual desires by trying to live a celibate life of service to God. My heart breaks for them because they often cannot remain celibate, and then have the compound guilt of not only defiling themselves but abusing another human being in the process. I cried when I watched the movie The Thornbirds. A classic example of people tormenting themselves because they think it’s what God wants, but it is really needless suffering, because God didn’t ask men who want to preach to remain celibate. Many a good Catholic follower has been forced to do this thing because of a ruling passed down by those who wanted to prevent priests from appointing their sons after them. They could have preached the gospel from a different religious viewpoint, and been allowed to marry, but they were forced to choose between following their religious beliefs or abandoning them in order to pursue marriage and the calling of God to preach. What a horrible thing to do to those who are supposed to be “free”. To choose not to have children? I think the priest in The Thornbirds would have made a wonderful father and husband, and the world certainly can use more of those! The Catholic church has created alot of sexual frustration and angst in many a man or woman who accept celibacy for social reasons when, as Kathy said, it may not really be their calling. These people live in torment. I believe satan truly enjoys that. God did not desire us to live in continual self-denial of the feelings He created for us to enjoy. Some He did call to celibacy, but if we burn with passion, we are NOT supposed to just bottle it up. The Bible says so.
Isn’t the Thornbirds fiction?
I think using the Catholic scandal is an opportunistic excuse to disparage celibacy. No one, in the history of the world, has died for lack of sex. God most certainly intends us to steward our sexuality in celibacy unless we do enter His biblical definition of marriage. Of course sex is a powerful drive but so is self-control. Self-control is more powerful in general and a super-naturally infused gift of the Holy Spirit as well. If self-control weren’t more powerful we would all be having sex with anyone anywhere at any time. Some of our desires aren’t of God’s making as well. That is also very scriptural.
Which gets back to one of the main points of the post, the debate over homosexuality (celibacy for some reason in this comment thread) … is really a fundamental disagreement on the authority of scripture and how that applies to modern life.
” … the debate over homosexuality … is really a fundamental disagreement on the authority of scripture and how that applies to modern life.”
Right on, Randy. The celibacy fear or even the belief that some are called to celibacy have become a red herring here. Those whom God calls in any wise He equips. And He requires much of those He calls. Of every Christian, He requires obedience to Him and not to man-made creeds. There is no spiritual illumination without submission to Christ and the acts of obedience that follow. We can’t be sovereign demigods. There is only one Authority.
Thanks, Randy, for bringing the point back to “the radar screen” — or — as my regular mom used to say, “the front burner.”
” . . . the authority of scripture and how that [scripture's authority] applies to modern life.”
Especially my own life . . . . . . what I mean by that is just this — how am I applying Jesus’ Authority in my own life — today?
Poorly.
It’s true that I’m no longer teaching others heresy like I used to years ago — (specifically that homosexuality is a gift from God) — but — today & many days prior to today, I am not praising Jesus in the midst of my physical hardships. Which means that I am becoming spiritually & emotionally weaker — all because I am consciously choosing to NOT praise The One Who Created me & Died for me & Who Is The Great I AM.
Thanks for letting me share a part of my heart that is so NOT pretty — a part of my heart that is choosing to not bow down to PAPA’S Authority in my life.
And thank You, Jesus, for Loving me in the midst of my not praising You — thank You, thank You, thank You.
Thanks, Randy, for bringing the point back to “the radar screen” — or — as my regular mom used to say, “the front burner.”
” . . . the authority of scripture and how that [scripture's authority] applies to modern life.”
Especially my own life . . . . . . what I mean by that is just this — how am I applying Jesus’ Authority in my own life — today?
Poorly.
It’s true that I’m no longer teaching others heresy like I used to years ago — (specifically that homosexuality is a gift from God) — but — today & many days prior to today, I am not praising Jesus in the midst of my physical hardships. Which means that I am becoming spiritually & emotionally weaker — all because I am consciously choosing to NOT praise The One Who Created me & Died for me & Who Is The Great I AM.
Thanks for letting me share a part of my heart that is so NOT pretty — a part of my heart that is choosing to not bow down to PAPA’S Authority in my life.
And thank You, Jesus, for Loving me in the midst of my not praising You — thank You, thank You, thank You.
I think what those men/women do in bed with their partners is no one’s business. Goodness knows I don’t want to know. Their sins are between them and God. I would hope people can look past their personal business and just love each other when they’re in their house of worship. How do we know that a religious person in a position of authority isn’t a chronic masturbator? Or glutton? Everyone has personal struggles, and I personally think that shouldn’t exclude someone from having the opportunity to be in an authority position (I mean, unless you’re a pedophile – since yall were talking about the Catholic church).
I know people are going to disagree because of the whole “well it’s not the same because they aren’t repenting their homosexuality” thing but my opinion still stands.
Good points. If they are not standing alone, they have a small group of people who know them well in their personality’s strengths and weaknesses, who can support and encourage them and pray for them in their ongoing walk of becoming more like Jesus, that is, growing in being more loving, patient, gentle, kind, faithful, good, peaceful, joyful, self-controlled. So that they don’t bear their personal struggles alone, but neither are any private details aired out for the whole world to see. I think leaders who stand alone are the most vulnerable to falling into all sorts of problems with either power or money or sex.
Sean, by what authority do you assert that “what those men/women do in bed with their partners is no one’s business.”? While what lawful sexual acts, positions etc. of a husband and wife are “no one’s business” the Bible is clear that those who have sex outside the boundaries of a husband and wife relationship is prohibited and a sin against the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:15-17).
Furthermore, we’re talking about the CHURCH here, which is SUPPOSED to be upholding the Bible which explicitly states what we may and may not do with the bodies that are created by God and for God, that we Christians do not own ourselves for we are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1:18-19)
Even more so, the Bible also calls minsters to live exemplary lives which includes how we conduct ourselves in the bedroom. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:7-9) Fornication, adultery or homosexual acts with “partners” is prohibited of all Christians according to the authority of God’s Word, but especially for those who are to lead by example.
It is true that all Christians (including us ministers) sin at times and like everyone else we need to repent daily, but it is one thing to live a life of constant repentance and another for a church or denomination to not only sanction non-repentance but to actually advocate and promote sinful actions as an acceptable practice, especially by its leaders.
Pastor Erik
I think what those men/women do in bed with their partners is no one’s business. Goodness knows I don’t want to know. Their sins are between them and God. I would hope people can look past their personal business and just love each other when they’re in their house of worship. How do we know that a religious person in a position of authority isn’t a chronic masturbator? Or glutton? Everyone has personal struggles, and I personally think that shouldn’t exclude someone from having the opportunity to be in an authority position (I mean, unless you’re a pedophile – since yall were talking about the Catholic church).
I know people are going to disagree because of the whole “well it’s not the same because they aren’t repenting their homosexuality” thing but my opinion still stands.
Good points. If they are not standing alone, they have a small group of people who know them well in their personality’s strengths and weaknesses, who can support and encourage them and pray for them in their ongoing walk of becoming more like Jesus, that is, growing in being more loving, patient, gentle, kind, faithful, good, peaceful, joyful, self-controlled. So that they don’t bear their personal struggles alone, but neither are any private details aired out for the whole world to see. I think leaders who stand alone are the most vulnerable to falling into all sorts of problems with either power or money or sex.
Sean, by what authority do you assert that “what those men/women do in bed with their partners is no one’s business.”? While what lawful sexual acts, positions etc. of a husband and wife are “no one’s business” the Bible is clear that those who have sex outside the boundaries of a husband and wife relationship is prohibited and a sin against the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:15-17).
Furthermore, we’re talking about the CHURCH here, which is SUPPOSED to be upholding the Bible which explicitly states what we may and may not do with the bodies that are created by God and for God, that we Christians do not own ourselves for we are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1:18-19)
Even more so, the Bible also calls minsters to live exemplary lives which includes how we conduct ourselves in the bedroom. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:7-9) Fornication, adultery or homosexual acts with “partners” is prohibited of all Christians according to the authority of God’s Word, but especially for those who are to lead by example.
It is true that all Christians (including us ministers) sin at times and like everyone else we need to repent daily, but it is one thing to live a life of constant repentance and another for a church or denomination to not only sanction non-repentance but to actually advocate and promote sinful actions as an acceptable practice, especially by its leaders.
Pastor Erik
The fundamental difference is that I don’t think the Bible condemns homosexuality. Even with that disagreement, I just don’t understand why people are obsessing over their sex lives when they don’t even attend that church….or obsessing over ANY sex life that isn’t their own, actually.
The fundamental difference is that I don’t think the Bible condemns homosexuality. Even with that disagreement, I just don’t understand why people are obsessing over their sex lives when they don’t even attend that church….or obsessing over ANY sex life that isn’t their own, actually.
we feel like it is wrong it say’s that in the bible there in our opinon gods laws is what maters it’s now the goverment that should have the right to change.i feel that they will go to hell but it is not myplace to judge it’s gods place and everyone will be judged according to god but they need to think twice about what there dioing. according to my husband he beleives the bible would not allow to marry a rabbit. so again think about it in god we trust and the goverment thinks they can take religion out of the united state but america say’s allways in god we trust and they will never take that from us.
I am 110% sure my boyfriend is NOT a rabbit. He’s a human man. Why are you comparing him to a rabbit?!
we feel like it is wrong it say’s that in the bible there in our opinon gods laws is what maters it’s now the goverment that should have the right to change.i feel that they will go to hell but it is not myplace to judge it’s gods place and everyone will be judged according to god but they need to think twice about what there dioing. according to my husband he beleives the bible would not allow to marry a rabbit. so again think about it in god we trust and the goverment thinks they can take religion out of the united state but america say’s allways in god we trust and they will never take that from us.
I am 110% sure my boyfriend is NOT a rabbit. He’s a human man. Why are you comparing him to a rabbit?!
This isn’t new or unusual in San Francisco. A huge array of churches and religions in San Francisco are very opened to homosexuality and it is considered very acceptable. No salvation of any kind is pretty much is widely a common motto in the churches in San Francisco. For those of you who live out of state San Francisco will make those of you who live out of state your heads will spin. Trust me, you’ll be in utter shock if you saw a variety of things that go on out here. I live outside of San Francisco, and there are many churches that allow homosexuality. In gay pride month we have it televised out here in our local TV stations. However, there are many things that the TV stations have to block out. Guys literally have sex out in the open on the street or on the floats that pass by. That is a fact. If heterosexual people do that out in public, it wouldn’t be tolerated. However, if you say anything you are pointed out as a bigot or whatever. For many years, the city of San Francisco has been an extremely difficult city for ministers to witness to. That goes for the Full Gospel Churches. The churches that are completely full Gospel and are strictly Bible based were usually run out of the city. The problem is very deeply rooted.
Have you ever been to mardi gras? Don’t tell me the party personalities who happen to be straight don’t get their freak on during that festival. I have lived in the bay area for 4 years and never saw guys having sex in the street. And even if they did, they don’t represent the gay community any more than mardi gras represents straight people. Or westboro baptist represents christians.
This isn’t new or unusual in San Francisco. A huge array of churches and religions in San Francisco are very opened to homosexuality and it is considered very acceptable. No salvation of any kind is pretty much is widely a common motto in the churches in San Francisco. For those of you who live out of state San Francisco will make those of you who live out of state your heads will spin. Trust me, you’ll be in utter shock if you saw a variety of things that go on out here. I live outside of San Francisco, and there are many churches that allow homosexuality. In gay pride month we have it televised out here in our local TV stations. However, there are many things that the TV stations have to block out. Guys literally have sex out in the open on the street or on the floats that pass by. That is a fact. If heterosexual people do that out in public, it wouldn’t be tolerated. However, if you say anything you are pointed out as a bigot or whatever. For many years, the city of San Francisco has been an extremely difficult city for ministers to witness to. That goes for the Full Gospel Churches. The churches that are completely full Gospel and are strictly Bible based were usually run out of the city. The problem is very deeply rooted.
Have you ever been to mardi gras? Don’t tell me the party personalities who happen to be straight don’t get their freak on during that festival. I have lived in the bay area for 4 years and never saw guys having sex in the street. And even if they did, they don’t represent the gay community any more than mardi gras represents straight people. Or westboro baptist represents christians.
I have to agree with my friend Sean here. I too live in the SF Bay area, have seen the Gay parades, Leather Bondage parades etc. but have also heard a gay radio talk show host on KGO 810 AM denounce it.
To pick such parades as representatives of the Gay community is about as fair as using the televangelists (Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hicky, Robert Tilton etc.) on TBN that rip old people off of their social security checks promising the perfect health and wealth if they just give a “seed of faith” and make false promises that people can be healed of their illnesses if they just have enough faith, as representatives of Christianity.
I was an elder at a church in SF and while we suffered persecution from the Gay radicals but we were also warned by other gays when terrorists threats were being plotted. So, one portion of the gay community was protecting us form the other minority part of the gay community.
I have to agree with my friend Sean here. I too live in the SF Bay area, have seen the Gay parades, Leather Bondage parades etc. but have also heard a gay radio talk show host on KGO 810 AM denounce it.
To pick such parades as representatives of the Gay community is about as fair as using the televangelists (Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hicky, Robert Tilton etc.) on TBN that rip old people off of their social security checks promising the perfect health and wealth if they just give a “seed of faith” and make false promises that people can be healed of their illnesses if they just have enough faith, as representatives of Christianity.
I was an elder at a church in SF and while we suffered persecution from the Gay radicals but we were also warned by other gays when terrorists threats were being plotted. So, one portion of the gay community was protecting us form the other minority part of the gay community.
Shawn? I was born and raised in the San Francisco, Bay Area, and I have lived here all my life. Yes, there are guys who have sex out in the street during the Gay Pride Parade. They televised it locally every year. In one particular scene, they had to block out two guys in engaging in oral sex on a float for all to see. I know what I saw and all of us who have lived here all of our lives are aware how common it is. Also, I worked with gay men who told me they wouldn’t go near the Gay Pride Parades because they thought it was really despicable. In fact one the gay men that I used to work with said that a friend of his took her children to the parade in support of her gay friends. She said she saw a variety of things including condom balloons, men dressed in costume as huge penises, women riding on motorcycles topless who are group of women called themselves, Dikes on Bikes. That was the tip of the iceberg. The lady took her kids and ran out of there because she wasn’t expecting that. I’m not saying each and every gay man acts that way in public. What I’m saying is the Gay Pride Parade in San Francisco is way out of bounds. And San Francisco is extremely liberal minded in every way not just with homosexuals, but that is a common and main factor out in San Francisco. I agree with you about Mardi Gras. A lot of straight people have sex out on street, and I heard in Mardi Gras crime is enormous as well. The police are all around to monitor Mardi Gars as best as they can. And they arrest people that act out of line. However, in San Francisco, during the Gay Pride Parade, the police ignore guys who have sex in public because the city officials instruct them to leave them alone. But as far as ramped crime like Mardi Gars no, not at all. But again, having sex in public is very, very common.
I find topless dykes on bikes as offensive as breastfeeding – which is not at all. I may be gay, but boobs don’t scare me. But what I’m getting from your response is “Yeah mardi gras can be dirty, but SF is way worse!!” Which I simply don’t agree with. If that’s NOT what you’re trying to say, please correct me. I’ve been to many a gay pride, and some are more crazy than others because big cities usually attract party animals. It’s kind of a no brainer to me that a parade celebrating sexuality + party personalities = outrageous.
Unless you have police reports comparing arrests from SF gay pride and mardi gras I seriously question the validity of your statements in regards to “the cops just ignore men having sex in SF.”
Shawn? I was born and raised in the San Francisco, Bay Area, and I have lived here all my life. Yes, there are guys who have sex out in the street during the Gay Pride Parade. They televised it locally every year. In one particular scene, they had to block out two guys in engaging in oral sex on a float for all to see. I know what I saw and all of us who have lived here all of our lives are aware how common it is. Also, I worked with gay men who told me they wouldn’t go near the Gay Pride Parades because they thought it was really despicable. In fact one the gay men that I used to work with said that a friend of his took her children to the parade in support of her gay friends. She said she saw a variety of things including condom balloons, men dressed in costume as huge penises, women riding on motorcycles topless who are group of women called themselves, Dikes on Bikes. That was the tip of the iceberg. The lady took her kids and ran out of there because she wasn’t expecting that. I’m not saying each and every gay man acts that way in public. What I’m saying is the Gay Pride Parade in San Francisco is way out of bounds. And San Francisco is extremely liberal minded in every way not just with homosexuals, but that is a common and main factor out in San Francisco. I agree with you about Mardi Gras. A lot of straight people have sex out on street, and I heard in Mardi Gras crime is enormous as well. The police are all around to monitor Mardi Gars as best as they can. And they arrest people that act out of line. However, in San Francisco, during the Gay Pride Parade, the police ignore guys who have sex in public because the city officials instruct them to leave them alone. But as far as ramped crime like Mardi Gars no, not at all. But again, having sex in public is very, very common.
I find topless dykes on bikes as offensive as breastfeeding – which is not at all. I may be gay, but boobs don’t scare me. But what I’m getting from your response is “Yeah mardi gras can be dirty, but SF is way worse!!” Which I simply don’t agree with. If that’s NOT what you’re trying to say, please correct me. I’ve been to many a gay pride, and some are more crazy than others because big cities usually attract party animals. It’s kind of a no brainer to me that a parade celebrating sexuality + party personalities = outrageous.
Unless you have police reports comparing arrests from SF gay pride and mardi gras I seriously question the validity of your statements in regards to “the cops just ignore men having sex in SF.”
Good comments here. @Randy, I meant no disrespect to the fact that celibacy is a viable lifestyle. It is honorable. But you do agree that the apostle Paul taught us not to “burn with passion” but to marry if that is where we are at in our sexuality. My comment was directed to those who burn, but think if they just put a cork in it, it will be ok. And that is not healthy, in my opinion. It makes people act out in ways that are far more damaging than pursing a monogamous relationship. God hates divorce, but He allowed it so that women would not be trapped with men who did not love them. God has compassion for unloved women! How much moreso do you think He sympathizes with men who struggle with SSA? If you or I can have compassion toward those who struggle, God must be capable of it as well. And so, with that said, I believe He would allow them to pursue a same sex relationship as long as it takes for them to realize that it’s not all they thought it would be, and then turn to Him in repentance and try things His way. That is what happened to me. Been married 12 years now to a man, in obedience to God. It was and is a struggle still. I won’t say it isn’t. Being a wife is something that has been difficult for me, so it has caused me to lean on God more that if I had done things the other way. In fact, I was in a lesbian relationship for 4 years, and it took 4 years after we broke up before it was actually over. And it almost started up again, except someone else came into the picture so I just left it alone.
@Shawn, i enjoy reading what you write. I appreciate your situation, and your kindness toward those of us who differ with you in our viewpoint. Thanks for sharing.
Finally, regarding the original article on this thread, may i just add that if we are truly walking in love toward one another, we will get along with each other. We want to be winsome, to win some. Many people are repelled from following Christ because of infighting among His followers! They will know we are Christians by our love, right? WWJD – What would He do? He would fellowship with those caught in the grip of sin. He would not reject them, or insult them! Sexual brokenness is not an easy fix, but it can be controlled, like Randy said, with self-control. My struggle was i didn’t want to have self-control. I didn’t want to work that hard! Just wanted to give in to sin. But life is a battle. It is a fight, to continue to do what is right, when all hell is hell-bent against it. Tugging at us. Drawing us. Wooing us. Temping us with lies we want to believe, even though we know better.
So… we help each other fight the good fight of faith. How better to do that than to be in the trenches together, at church? When one of us struggles, we admit it, confess our sins one to another, and we all pray for each other to be overcomers. You can’t be an overcomer if you have nothing to overcome. So many of us would rather pretend everything is fine. But that robs others of the opportunity to help us. It feels good to help someone get through a hard time with an encouraging word, or to be used of God with an actual Word from Him in someone’s time of need. We are His Body, and He works through us as we minister to one another. I just want to be a vessel He can use. Maybe something I have experienced can be of help to someone else. We are to comfort others with the comfort we once received.
Hope this helps someone. I just know that God has so much more for us than a 20 minute sermon and a few songs on Sunday. We need to be closer than that to get our emotional needs met legitimately. We need to share with each other our struggles. When someone says, “How are you?” to me, I hope they really want to know, because I am going to tell them the truth : ) Usually I am fine. But if I need prayer or a word of encouragement, how are they gonna know if I don’t tell them? I love my church because they accept people where they are. They don’t want us wearing masks, pretending to be fine. We all have issues. It is because we don’t talk about them that people feel like they are the only ones with a problem. Who is that helping?
Thanks Kristen
I’m surprised Randy let me get away with a boob joke. LOL. I also think you have some very insightful comments to add when it comes to pretending to be fine vs. how we’re really doing.
“God hates divorce, but He allowed it so that women would not be trapped with men who did not love them.”
Not sure where that insight comes from, theologically speaking. It seems that God overlooked a huge swath of history and cultures, given that many women have not been and are not even now free to divorce unloving or even abusive husbands in some parts of the world. But this is another digression and I don’t really wish to be nitpicking.
You are right, Kristen, in that we ought to be “in the trenches” with one another in the Church. Historically, we have failed one another miserably. We invent nonbiblical traditions and turn our backs on those we believe we cannot love because of their “otherness.”
Randy’s post prior to this one (in which he talks about his journey over the past 18 years) really nails it. He emphasizes placing Christ first. We cannot fail each other when we do that. We are not to focus on human needs above knowing and loving Christ. We can trust him to direct us to where and how we ought to be. But it all hinges, again, as he has said here, on submitting to his authority. There is unfathomable peace and order in that.
Good comments here. @Randy, I meant no disrespect to the fact that celibacy is a viable lifestyle. It is honorable. But you do agree that the apostle Paul taught us not to “burn with passion” but to marry if that is where we are at in our sexuality. My comment was directed to those who burn, but think if they just put a cork in it, it will be ok. And that is not healthy, in my opinion. It makes people act out in ways that are far more damaging than pursing a monogamous relationship. God hates divorce, but He allowed it so that women would not be trapped with men who did not love them. God has compassion for unloved women! How much moreso do you think He sympathizes with men who struggle with SSA? If you or I can have compassion toward those who struggle, God must be capable of it as well. And so, with that said, I believe He would allow them to pursue a same sex relationship as long as it takes for them to realize that it’s not all they thought it would be, and then turn to Him in repentance and try things His way. That is what happened to me. Been married 12 years now to a man, in obedience to God. It was and is a struggle still. I won’t say it isn’t. Being a wife is something that has been difficult for me, so it has caused me to lean on God more that if I had done things the other way. In fact, I was in a lesbian relationship for 4 years, and it took 4 years after we broke up before it was actually over. And it almost started up again, except someone else came into the picture so I just left it alone.
@Shawn, i enjoy reading what you write. I appreciate your situation, and your kindness toward those of us who differ with you in our viewpoint. Thanks for sharing.
Finally, regarding the original article on this thread, may i just add that if we are truly walking in love toward one another, we will get along with each other. We want to be winsome, to win some. Many people are repelled from following Christ because of infighting among His followers! They will know we are Christians by our love, right? WWJD – What would He do? He would fellowship with those caught in the grip of sin. He would not reject them, or insult them! Sexual brokenness is not an easy fix, but it can be controlled, like Randy said, with self-control. My struggle was i didn’t want to have self-control. I didn’t want to work that hard! Just wanted to give in to sin. But life is a battle. It is a fight, to continue to do what is right, when all hell is hell-bent against it. Tugging at us. Drawing us. Wooing us. Temping us with lies we want to believe, even though we know better.
So… we help each other fight the good fight of faith. How better to do that than to be in the trenches together, at church? When one of us struggles, we admit it, confess our sins one to another, and we all pray for each other to be overcomers. You can’t be an overcomer if you have nothing to overcome. So many of us would rather pretend everything is fine. But that robs others of the opportunity to help us. It feels good to help someone get through a hard time with an encouraging word, or to be used of God with an actual Word from Him in someone’s time of need. We are His Body, and He works through us as we minister to one another. I just want to be a vessel He can use. Maybe something I have experienced can be of help to someone else. We are to comfort others with the comfort we once received.
Hope this helps someone. I just know that God has so much more for us than a 20 minute sermon and a few songs on Sunday. We need to be closer than that to get our emotional needs met legitimately. We need to share with each other our struggles. When someone says, “How are you?” to me, I hope they really want to know, because I am going to tell them the truth : ) Usually I am fine. But if I need prayer or a word of encouragement, how are they gonna know if I don’t tell them? I love my church because they accept people where they are. They don’t want us wearing masks, pretending to be fine. We all have issues. It is because we don’t talk about them that people feel like they are the only ones with a problem. Who is that helping?
Thanks Kristen
I’m surprised Randy let me get away with a boob joke. LOL. I also think you have some very insightful comments to add when it comes to pretending to be fine vs. how we’re really doing.
“God hates divorce, but He allowed it so that women would not be trapped with men who did not love them.”
Not sure where that insight comes from, theologically speaking. It seems that God overlooked a huge swath of history and cultures, given that many women have not been and are not even now free to divorce unloving or even abusive husbands in some parts of the world. But this is another digression and I don’t really wish to be nitpicking.
You are right, Kristen, in that we ought to be “in the trenches” with one another in the Church. Historically, we have failed one another miserably. We invent nonbiblical traditions and turn our backs on those we believe we cannot love because of their “otherness.”
Randy’s post prior to this one (in which he talks about his journey over the past 18 years) really nails it. He emphasizes placing Christ first. We cannot fail each other when we do that. We are not to focus on human needs above knowing and loving Christ. We can trust him to direct us to where and how we ought to be. But it all hinges, again, as he has said here, on submitting to his authority. There is unfathomable peace and order in that.
Shawn, when you disagree with someone you are really nice, and you are very diplomatic, you’re great! However, I still stand by comment. Again, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I do have relatives that worked in law enforcement for many years. I don’t have any police reports because I don’t work in the police department nor do any of my relatives. Also, I’m not going any deeper in this conversation. If you don’t believe me? well then you don’t believe me, fine. I’m not trying to win points. the things that I have state are what they are and are factual. I’m very straightforward and honest, and there is no bull with me. If I didn’t see it, if didn’t know about something, then I would state it. Hope you know that I don’t wish any strife against you. Even though that you, and I don’t agree on things, that is all right, and that is completely your choice. I’m glad you are here. Try to have a bit of an opened mind. Maybe not on what I say, but maybe on what others are trying to convey in Exodus.
I cut and paste this from another post I commented on, and I think this particular comment I made before is appropriate for this particular post. I’m going to get a bit graphic because I’m going voice getting real on the core of the double standards that is occurring within many churches. Not all of them. So, getting back to the original topic on what is going on in the Lutheran Church in San Francisco. I want to point out that many Christians express homosexual sex acts are thee pinnacle of debauchery, and are contrary to nature and God’s plan. Also, to act out homosexual sexuality isn’t acceptable as a Christian and not acceptable for church leaders to live this lifestyle. However, many ministers now believe that the Song of Solomon is a description of sex positions for heterosexual married Christians. They claim that anal and oral sex is described in detail within the Song of Solomon, and that it’s purely acceptable as long as this is within the boundary of marriage. No hold’s barred within Christian marriage. Now, this is completely hypocritical because they claim how sodomy is so disgusting and against nature, yet many mimic those very sex acts. So how can they point the finger at other people when again, many are doing the same thing? Those people say, the difference is that its practice between two people who are of the opposite sex. I asked my dad about this who is a brilliant Bible theologian to the point that he found a mathematical code within the Bible dealing with prophecy. He studied Hebrew and speaks it fluently, He knows the Bible like the back of his hand. He studies everyday studiously, and teaches within his congregation. He is planning on writing a book. Also, he dissected revelation and knows revelation like the back of his hand. The Lord revealed many, many astounding things to him He never takes credit for anything because my father puts things in perspective, and always says it’s the Lord working through me, and I’m just his servant. He is right because it isn’t him, but the Holy Spirit. Anyway, so I asked him if this makes any sense to him when the Bible states that these sex acts are obviously contrary to nature, and are considered perverted. Yet, it isn’t considered disgusting when two people who are heterosexual, and married do the same thing. He said, that isn’t remotely what the Song of Solomon is about nor trying to convey. My dad was shocked how some so- called Christians, not all, misread or take the Song of Solomon out of context to justify their sinful ways. He totally agrees with me that it is hypocritical, unfair, and twisted. Again, so this is acceptable within a Christian marriage because the two people who are involved are a man and a woman verses a couple who are of the same sex. I scratch my head on this one. My point is when Christians are mimicking sin, and mimicking the very same sinful acts that they judge the world on, you better practice what you preach. I’m not agreeing with what is going on with the Lutheran Church. What I’m saying is Christians sin too, but the difference is we are supposed to recognize that is sin and repent of the sin. You are not supposed to be like the world, but live a clean Biblical life and try to set an example for others that there is a difference between you and the world. However, when Christians try to mimic sexuality contrary to nature, and to the Bible by justifying it by contorting the Song of Solomon really means you better get your act together. We are all human and we are not perfect. But when there are those who try to justify various sins that they are acting out as acceptable to God because they are heterosexual and married, I’m sorry but this is nonsense. That doesn’t give you the right to be no holds barred, and let your carnal thoughts run freely. Sin is sin and all sin isn’t acceptable with Christ. He strives for us to live a wholesome life, but he knows we can’t be totally perfect.
Hi James, thanks for responding. I don’t think you’re lying or anything, I am very aware that at the folsom street fair a lot of sexual things go on, but I have never attended because it’s not my thing. I am pretty sure we agree sex in public probably isn’t the best thing ever, but I still don’t understand jumping to the whole “Oh yeah, san francisco churches are very liberal, and p.s. the men have sex in the streets.” I don’t understand the connection. Its kind of like when Peter LaBarbera pays money to go to gay bondage conferences, takes photos, and then says “look how perverted they are!” when that’s a totally unfair generalization to make. Oh well, agree to disagree!
For the larger part of your post, I want to make sure I’m understanding it correctly. Basically straight married couples have anal/oral sex and this is just as sinful as homosexual sex? Only it’s never really talked about or acknowledged in church communities and addressed as being sinful? I’m not Christian and my boyfriend is a “liberal” Catholic, so that line of thinking is very foreign to me. Does this mean if straight married couples engage in anal/oral sex and don’t repent they are probably going to hell? I am very interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks!
Shawn, when you disagree with someone you are really nice, and you are very diplomatic, you’re great! However, I still stand by comment. Again, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I do have relatives that worked in law enforcement for many years. I don’t have any police reports because I don’t work in the police department nor do any of my relatives. Also, I’m not going any deeper in this conversation. If you don’t believe me? well then you don’t believe me, fine. I’m not trying to win points. the things that I have state are what they are and are factual. I’m very straightforward and honest, and there is no bull with me. If I didn’t see it, if didn’t know about something, then I would state it. Hope you know that I don’t wish any strife against you. Even though that you, and I don’t agree on things, that is all right, and that is completely your choice. I’m glad you are here. Try to have a bit of an opened mind. Maybe not on what I say, but maybe on what others are trying to convey in Exodus.
I cut and paste this from another post I commented on, and I think this particular comment I made before is appropriate for this particular post. I’m going to get a bit graphic because I’m going voice getting real on the core of the double standards that is occurring within many churches. Not all of them. So, getting back to the original topic on what is going on in the Lutheran Church in San Francisco. I want to point out that many Christians express homosexual sex acts are thee pinnacle of debauchery, and are contrary to nature and God’s plan. Also, to act out homosexual sexuality isn’t acceptable as a Christian and not acceptable for church leaders to live this lifestyle. However, many ministers now believe that the Song of Solomon is a description of sex positions for heterosexual married Christians. They claim that anal and oral sex is described in detail within the Song of Solomon, and that it’s purely acceptable as long as this is within the boundary of marriage. No hold’s barred within Christian marriage. Now, this is completely hypocritical because they claim how sodomy is so disgusting and against nature, yet many mimic those very sex acts. So how can they point the finger at other people when again, many are doing the same thing? Those people say, the difference is that its practice between two people who are of the opposite sex. I asked my dad about this who is a brilliant Bible theologian to the point that he found a mathematical code within the Bible dealing with prophecy. He studied Hebrew and speaks it fluently, He knows the Bible like the back of his hand. He studies everyday studiously, and teaches within his congregation. He is planning on writing a book. Also, he dissected revelation and knows revelation like the back of his hand. The Lord revealed many, many astounding things to him He never takes credit for anything because my father puts things in perspective, and always says it’s the Lord working through me, and I’m just his servant. He is right because it isn’t him, but the Holy Spirit. Anyway, so I asked him if this makes any sense to him when the Bible states that these sex acts are obviously contrary to nature, and are considered perverted. Yet, it isn’t considered disgusting when two people who are heterosexual, and married do the same thing. He said, that isn’t remotely what the Song of Solomon is about nor trying to convey. My dad was shocked how some so- called Christians, not all, misread or take the Song of Solomon out of context to justify their sinful ways. He totally agrees with me that it is hypocritical, unfair, and twisted. Again, so this is acceptable within a Christian marriage because the two people who are involved are a man and a woman verses a couple who are of the same sex. I scratch my head on this one. My point is when Christians are mimicking sin, and mimicking the very same sinful acts that they judge the world on, you better practice what you preach. I’m not agreeing with what is going on with the Lutheran Church. What I’m saying is Christians sin too, but the difference is we are supposed to recognize that is sin and repent of the sin. You are not supposed to be like the world, but live a clean Biblical life and try to set an example for others that there is a difference between you and the world. However, when Christians try to mimic sexuality contrary to nature, and to the Bible by justifying it by contorting the Song of Solomon really means you better get your act together. We are all human and we are not perfect. But when there are those who try to justify various sins that they are acting out as acceptable to God because they are heterosexual and married, I’m sorry but this is nonsense. That doesn’t give you the right to be no holds barred, and let your carnal thoughts run freely. Sin is sin and all sin isn’t acceptable with Christ. He strives for us to live a wholesome life, but he knows we can’t be totally perfect.
Hi James, thanks for responding. I don’t think you’re lying or anything, I am very aware that at the folsom street fair a lot of sexual things go on, but I have never attended because it’s not my thing. I am pretty sure we agree sex in public probably isn’t the best thing ever, but I still don’t understand jumping to the whole “Oh yeah, san francisco churches are very liberal, and p.s. the men have sex in the streets.” I don’t understand the connection. Its kind of like when Peter LaBarbera pays money to go to gay bondage conferences, takes photos, and then says “look how perverted they are!” when that’s a totally unfair generalization to make. Oh well, agree to disagree!
For the larger part of your post, I want to make sure I’m understanding it correctly. Basically straight married couples have anal/oral sex and this is just as sinful as homosexual sex? Only it’s never really talked about or acknowledged in church communities and addressed as being sinful? I’m not Christian and my boyfriend is a “liberal” Catholic, so that line of thinking is very foreign to me. Does this mean if straight married couples engage in anal/oral sex and don’t repent they are probably going to hell? I am very interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks!
Some ministers etc. always point out, marriage, marriage, and marriage is thee way to live one’s Christian life. I think there is a sense of loosing focus, of what is really thee way to live. Some live healthy, happy, terrific, celibate lives. Others live healthy, happy terrific married lives. Our lives aren’t’ cookie cutters. We live according to what God wants for us. It may be marriage or it maybe living celibate. It is so great to see some people living celibate lives. I think people like Randy, and many others who mention in Exodus that they live celibate lives and are very happy in Christ is an awesome inspiration to me, and no doubt to others as well. I think that is very commendable. I have your read your personal journeys and testimonies if you only knew how grateful to God I am knowing that there are others who strive in life like me out there and I’m not alone. It truly is a blessing.
Some ministers etc. always point out, marriage, marriage, and marriage is thee way to live one’s Christian life. I think there is a sense of loosing focus, of what is really thee way to live. Some live healthy, happy, terrific, celibate lives. Others live healthy, happy terrific married lives. Our lives aren’t’ cookie cutters. We live according to what God wants for us. It may be marriage or it maybe living celibate. It is so great to see some people living celibate lives. I think people like Randy, and many others who mention in Exodus that they live celibate lives and are very happy in Christ is an awesome inspiration to me, and no doubt to others as well. I think that is very commendable. I have your read your personal journeys and testimonies if you only knew how grateful to God I am knowing that there are others who strive in life like me out there and I’m not alone. It truly is a blessing.
Hi Shawn! Your great! Yes, acts that are contrary to nature, and those sex acts are believed to be perverted. I don’t know if a Christian, married couple would go to hell if they sexually explore in that way within their marriage or not. I haven’t checked on that deeply, but that is a good question. I know it doesn’t please God in the least for them to be sexually perverted. And the Book of the Song of Solomon is certainly not about sex acts. The Bible doesn’t having thing remotely like that. The Bible does state that sexuality between a man and a woman in marriage is a blessing and should be expressed. However, If someone preaches that homosexual sex acts are perverted, sodomy, etc, that minister, preacher, etc. better make sure he or she isn’t engaging in those acts of perversion. Some may think, well the difference is I’m married, and it is done with the opposite sex so therefore it is acceptable. Wrong! Oral sex is oral sex, anal sex is anal sex regardless if the partner is of the opposite sex or the same sex. So, yes, I think they are held accountable because they are spouse to know better than that. Because they are suppose to read the Bible and be more in tune with the Bible. I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to generalize, and say that every minister, preacher etc. have this flaw in his or her life. Many do their research, and pray to God for answers. I’m just saying I have heard some ministers express that there is nothing wrong with this kind of behavior just as long if the person is married. They either are trying to justify sinful acts in their life or they may not know they Bible all that well as they are supposed to. I hope was I clear? If I wasn’t, let me know. Nice talking to you Shawn.
Hi Shawn! Your great! Yes, acts that are contrary to nature, and those sex acts are believed to be perverted. I don’t know if a Christian, married couple would go to hell if they sexually explore in that way within their marriage or not. I haven’t checked on that deeply, but that is a good question. I know it doesn’t please God in the least for them to be sexually perverted. And the Book of the Song of Solomon is certainly not about sex acts. The Bible doesn’t having thing remotely like that. The Bible does state that sexuality between a man and a woman in marriage is a blessing and should be expressed. However, If someone preaches that homosexual sex acts are perverted, sodomy, etc, that minister, preacher, etc. better make sure he or she isn’t engaging in those acts of perversion. Some may think, well the difference is I’m married, and it is done with the opposite sex so therefore it is acceptable. Wrong! Oral sex is oral sex, anal sex is anal sex regardless if the partner is of the opposite sex or the same sex. So, yes, I think they are held accountable because they are spouse to know better than that. Because they are suppose to read the Bible and be more in tune with the Bible. I want to make it clear that I’m not trying to generalize, and say that every minister, preacher etc. have this flaw in his or her life. Many do their research, and pray to God for answers. I’m just saying I have heard some ministers express that there is nothing wrong with this kind of behavior just as long if the person is married. They either are trying to justify sinful acts in their life or they may not know they Bible all that well as they are supposed to. I hope was I clear? If I wasn’t, let me know. Nice talking to you Shawn.